How you create no karma?

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.
User avatar
loves' the unjust
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:36 pm

EMPTINESS

is where the void and existence meets.

I have said this before.

In emptiness there is nothing to think.

Once you understand emptiness you see that there is nothing but nothing to think in this world.

Today I understand emptiness.

So, the karma

could totaly be a lie?

...just wanted to share my wisdom.
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

User avatar
Great Sage EofH
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:21 pm

Spike wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:52 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:51 pm
bokki wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:32 am
well, yes, i missed it for ages, but i hit it once or twice
?
I would say that if a monk sits in perfect samadhi, although no efflents, or unskilled action, ripples in the field of action, nothing "bad"can come out of it... and yet it can't be without karma of another kind.
I would argue that perfect samadhi is not conditioned by a volitional impulse, is free from desire, hate, and delusion, and is therefore free of (all) karma.
That was my first thought; but then I went the other way with it. I'm not even sure I know what the exact source of the "no-karma" theory is - I've heard this in Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation teachings. So I'm going to need direct ancient source text citations to be convinced. I left TM in 1978. If there is a sutta or sutra that clearly states this I'd be interested.
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by [james] » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:09 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:21 pm
That was my first thought; but then I went the other way with it. I'm not even sure I know what the exact source of the "no-karma" theory is - I've heard this in Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation teachings. So I'm going to need direct ancient source text citations to be convinced. I left TM in 1978. If there is a sutta or sutra that clearly states this I'd be interested.
Karma is a given in Buddhism as far as I know, which is actually not very far. Have never come across a “no karma” theory.

Saṃyutta Nikāya 35.146
Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases
Kamma


“Bhikkhus, I will teach you new and old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak….

“And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear is old kamma … The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus is new kamma? Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? When one reaches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action, and mental action, this is called the cessation of kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of kamma? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

“Thus, bhikkhus, I have taught old kamma, I have taught new kamma, I have taught the cessation of kamma, I have taught the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever should be done, bhikkhus, by a compassionate teacher out of compassion for his disciples, desiring their welfare, that I have done for you. These are the feet of trees, bhikkhus, these are empty huts. Meditate, bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”

User avatar
Great Sage EofH
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:18 am

Ah, yeah. We know this now.... I suppose in this sense it is true. It's not a teaching that found it's way into the Mahayana or into Zen in particular, but we all act as though it does. So is this only for the Hinayana Monk or is is for us all?
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

User avatar
Spike
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:19 am

Re. Eightfold path: right concentration = samma samadhi.

User avatar
Great Sage EofH
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:07 am

And yet, if we look at the Eightfold Path, samma kammanta, or right action, by no stretch of the imagination could be read as "right kamma"

It's also interpreted as "Right Conduct" vis-a-vis this blurb:

Right Action:

Right Action recognises the need to take the ethical approach in life, to consider others and the world we live in. This includes not taking what is not given to us, and having respect for the agreements we make both in our private and business lives.

Right Action also encompasses the five precepts which were given by the Buddha, not to kill, steal, lie, to avoid sexual misconduct, and not to take drugs or other intoxicants.

This step on the path also includes a whole approach to the environment, with Right Action being taken whenever possible to safeguard the world for future generations.

(https://buddha101.com/p_path.htm)

So while on the one hand we can say that in "samadhi" - kamma is extinguished, to live in such a manner as to be inconsistent with creating future kamma for "other" beings would be.... SAD : (

Then someone will tell you all manfestations are only appearances, so nothing really matters.... or does it?

bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do? whatcha gonna do when they come for you?
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

User avatar
Great Sage EofH
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:14 am

Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

15. ­Nava­purā­ṇa­vagga
146. Kamma­nirodha­sutta




“Navapurāṇāni, bhikkhave, kammāni desessāmi kammanirodhaṃ kamma­nirodha­gā­miniñca paṭipadaṃ. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmīti. Katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ? Cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañ­cetayi­taṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ … pe … jivhā purāṇakammā abhisaṅkhatā abhisañ­cetayitā vedaniyā daṭṭhabbā … pe … mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañ­cetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ. Katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā, idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodho? Yo kho, bhikkhave, kāya­kamma­vacī­kamma­manokam­massa nirodhā vimuttiṃ phusati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodho. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kamma­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā? Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi—ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kamma­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā. Iti kho, bhikkhave, desitaṃ mayā purāṇakammaṃ, desitaṃ navakammaṃ, desito kammanirodho, desitā kamma­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā. Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satthārā karaṇīyaṃ sāvakānaṃ hitesinā anukampakena anukampaṃ upādāya, kataṃ vo taṃ mayā. Etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. Jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchā­vippa­ṭisārino ahuvattha. Ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.

Paṭhamaṃ.


:115:
The point here is the word "kamma" as though we could pry it out of context and discuss it like a lab rat, isn't even in the original text. This is not a discourse on the concept of "kamma" but one of many different kammas as they work their way through many other kammas. More to it than smiling at the flower.
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

User avatar
Spike
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:16 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:07 am
So while on the one hand we can say that in "samadhi" - kamma is extinguished, to live in such a manner as to be inconsistent with creating future kamma for "other" beings would be.... SAD : (
And no fun, either! :lol:

User avatar
Spike
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:24 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:14 am
Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

15. ­Nava­purā­ṇa­vagga
146. Kamma­nirodha­sutta




“Navapurāṇāni, bhikkhave, kammāni desessāmi kammanirodhaṃ kamma­nirodha­gā­miniñca paṭipadaṃ. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmīti. Katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ? Cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañ­cetayi­taṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ … pe … jivhā purāṇakammā abhisaṅkhatā abhisañ­cetayitā vedaniyā daṭṭhabbā … pe … mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañ­cetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ. Katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā, idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodho? Yo kho, bhikkhave, kāya­kamma­vacī­kamma­manokam­massa nirodhā vimuttiṃ phusati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodho. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kamma­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā? Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi—ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kamma­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā. Iti kho, bhikkhave, desitaṃ mayā purāṇakammaṃ, desitaṃ navakammaṃ, desito kammanirodho, desitā kamma­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā. Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satthārā karaṇīyaṃ sāvakānaṃ hitesinā anukampakena anukampaṃ upādāya, kataṃ vo taṃ mayā. Etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. Jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchā­vippa­ṭisārino ahuvattha. Ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.

Paṭhamaṃ.


:115:
The point here is the word "kamma" as though we could pry it out of context and discuss it like a lab rat, isn't even in the original text. This is not a discourse on the concept of "kamma" but one of many different kammas as they work their way through many other kammas. More to it than smiling at the flower.
Buddy, you're gonna have to tone this shit down, unless you're just trying to show off your . . . whatever. Maybe I am a lab rat through and through?

You're starting to make me appreciate the posts from loves' the unjust.

User avatar
Spike
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:21 pm
I'm not even sure I know what the exact source of the "no-karma" theory is - I've heard this in Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation teachings. So I'm going to need direct ancient source text citations to be convinced. I left TM in 1978. If there is a sutta or sutra that clearly states this I'd be interested.
Ah, guru maserati, from so long ago! I used to know several people who went the wrong way with this.
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:21 pm
I'm going to need direct ancient source text citations to be convinced.
Don't hold your breath. As if

User avatar
Great Sage EofH
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:40 am

Spike wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:19 am
Re. Eightfold path: right concentration = samma samadhi.
Really this is the right answer. For sure, it does not create the karma, that is the karma which binds us to ignorance, fear, and hate - in right samadhi it can't - it won't happen. The Questioner should be pointed toward direct samadhi. I think the other point that arose - how is that? in the context of shikantaza - or any other description of true zazen? I see no contradiction. It simply is what it is.
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 982
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Larry » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:10 am

The mind really does love stuff to chew on :D

“My religion is kindness” - Dalai Lama

User avatar
loves' the unjust
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:00 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:10 am
“My religion is kindness” - Dalai Lama
:namaste:
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

User avatar
loves' the unjust
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:36 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:36 pm
EMPTINESS

is where the void and existence meets.

I have said this before.

In emptiness there is nothing to think.

Once you understand emptiness you see that there is nothing but nothing to think in this world.

Today I understand emptiness.

So, the karma

could totaly be a lie?

...just wanted to share my wisdom.
Nagarjuna ~ Philosophy
Jesus ~ God

Buddha = No God + No Thought
Seems Buddhism takes %50 from left and %50 from right

&Only Peace with spirituality


Vast emptiness, Nothing holy = I Don't Know
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

User avatar
loves' the unjust
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:35 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:36 pm
&Only Peace with spirituality
You know when everything die spirits remain.

JOKE
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1536
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:13 am

Awaken, first. Then, keep practicing.

Samadhi-state is not enough, because it -- itself -- is NOT the awakened state. One must wake up out of samadhi, suddenly (if one is a Ch'an, Zen, Son, or Thien practitioner). Only THEN are prajna and karuna freely arising (and hence one's behavior not likely creating karma; never before this).

(are there "other 'ways' "? Maybe, in "Outer-Paths" [not Buddhist paths: I.e., Other religions may claim there are "other 'ways' "... .] ).

But the awakened state may not persist more than a few months if not very assiduously cared-for, like naturally caring for an infant. Samadhi-practice on a continuing basis is the way naturally to maintain the awakened condition. But even then, one may fall-out, after a period, depending on causes and conditions. Who can help? Surely, a good plan is to have a teacher to consult and work with, closely, in the first place (but one who wakes-up usually has a teacher).

Without such a teacher (and sangha), it's rare or impossible to wake up in the first place. Anyway, a waking-up is tested and certified by a teacher, for safety, and not by "your-self" (not ever, ...I hope).

Best wishes for strong practice,

--Joe

p.s. I'd say that even in the awakened-state, one is on the razor-edge (!) of creating karma and not creating karma. Continued practice is necessary (see your teacher! ;-) No teacher? Oops. Caution... ).

> How you create no karma?
Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind. - Ma Tsu

Liberation is awakening to one's original nature. - Ma Tsu

A guest never knows how much to laugh at a family joke. -Henny Youngman

Bodhi-Mind is working for the good of others. -Hakuin

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 982
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Larry » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:02 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:13 am
Other religions may claim there are "other 'ways' "...
Are they mistaken? Is our religion better than theirs?

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1536
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:03 am

Hi, Lar,
Larry wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:02 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:13 am
Other religions may claim there are "other 'ways' "...
Are they mistaken? Is our religion better than theirs?
Larry, I'm a scientist. I say to you, "Do the experiment!" Take responsibility.

Granted, it may not be easy to glide along like that in someone else's path, you might think. But to satisfy yourself about your question's import, there may be no other way. See if outer-paths do the essential.

Don't look at me. :115:

--Joe

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 982
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by Larry » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:16 am

You’re so annoying!

But I love it :lol:

:115:

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1536
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: How you create no karma?

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:57 am

Larry wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:16 am
You’re so annoying!

But I love it :lol: :115:
If I can answer any other question, let me try. Or, re-phrase what I've disappointed on. I'm open to a challenge. And I realize that important stuff sometimes takes time to come to common terms with, believe me. Ex- Philosopher here... . (Philo. of Mind; Philo. of Science; Metaphysics).

I quit the philosophy career when I met my shih-fu, Ch'an Master Sheng Yen. Years gone by. Went to Pure Science. But still keep a hand in.

--Joe

Post Reply