Unification

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.

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Enver M.
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Unification

Post by Enver M. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm

:wool:

In islam there is an idea to unify with the god

In taoism it is to unify with the tao(way)

Since there is no supreme ideal in zen what do we unify with?

Any answers welcome,

please do answer everyone

as i'm trying to figure out something

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:09 pm

:wool:

all is one one is all

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Dan74
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Re: Unification

Post by Dan74 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:34 pm

Maybe it's seeing that there was never any real separation to begin with, just a bunch of delusory thoughts and habits to drop?

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:11 pm

:107:

any separation from what??

Aka spike

Re: Unification

Post by Aka spike » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:14 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:11 pm
:107:

any separation from what??
Well, if there is no "what" to separate from, then likewise there is nothing to unify with, yes? So the point of your question is moot.

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Dan74
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Re: Unification

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:10 am

I guess in Buddhism we begin to realise that our ideas of self, of other, of objects out there and me in here are just that - ideas, which have no substantial reality. So like Spike said 'no what to separate from'.. But this of course, can be just another idea, until there is the enduring recognition.

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:17 am

Ok. I think I can't get what I want.I was just trying to be a little mystic.

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Dan74
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Re: Unification

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:45 am

It can be frustrating for sure!

A Zen teacher, Joko Beck said
“Practice has to be a process of endless disappointment. We have to see that everything we demand (and even get) eventually disappoints us. This discovery is our teacher.”

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:35 am

:101:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Unification

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:41 pm

Hi, Enver!,

Just to wake up is enough (necessary; and, sufficient).

When one is awake, one may see that there is just one being (if that many).

My Ch'an teacher taught that, for a practitioner, there is most naturally a progression: from Scattered-Mind, to One-Mind; from One-Mind, to No-Mind.

At the point of No-Mind, one is awake.

At the point of One-Mind, well... at the point of One-Mind, too many people of the past created "religions", because that's where/when one feels there is a "God", or some presence like that. One must go beyond (deeper; simpler; quieter; more physically) than One-Mind, to ...No-Mind, to keep from being deluded. One seems to need a teacher in order to do this, a teacher who sees that one's lodging at "One-Mind" is being "stucK".

This is not just the official story. ;)

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

"The World is all that is the case". -Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:05 am

hi joe,

my dad applied a hot water treatment on his diseased leg last night.And it gets blister today.
I'm dealing with him.

I put my sign under all your words.
rgrds,

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:36 am

tao symbolize immortality in my outlook

Seeker242
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Re: Unification

Post by Seeker242 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:41 am

Enver M. wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm
Since there is no supreme ideal in zen what do we unify with?
There is a supreme ideal in zen, your true nature. That's what we unify with. :bow2:

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:44 am

:bow2:

Pablo
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Re: Unification

Post by Pablo » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:45 am

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:41 am
Enver M. wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm
Since there is no supreme ideal in zen what do we unify with?
There is a supreme ideal in zen, your true nature. That's what we unify with. :bow2:
Careful there. Are you turning "true nature" into a thing? Read Hakuin's Song of Zazen again.
Enver M. wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm
as i'm trying to figure out something
Enver, trying to figure out thing is a distraction from your real practice. There is doubt fueling your practice. That's good. Now stop all your games and give yourself to it. Otherwise, you're just playing Zen.
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

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lindama
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Re: Unification

Post by lindama » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:32 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:10 am
I guess in Buddhism we begin to realise that our ideas of self, of other, of objects out there and me in here are just that - ideas, which have no substantial reality. So like Spike said 'no what to separate from'.. But this of course, can be just another idea, until there is the enduring recognition.
sure, just that there is no enduring recognition, only talk about it. From that point of view Buddhism/seeking/stages are a setup to go beyond.

Enver:
In islam there is an idea to unify with the god

In taoism it is to unify with the tao(way)

Since there is no supreme ideal in zen what do we unify with?

Any answers welcome,

please do answer everyone

as i'm trying to figure out something
My first thought was around the word "unify". I don't know about Islam, but it didn't seem to fit for Taoism. It doesn't work for Christianity until we consider Christian Mysticism. Mysticism is not reserved for Christianity, it is a cross-culture, cross-religious phenomena. Yet, the word unify is only a pointer, and a misleading one at best.... unifiy is usually referring to the coming together, like north and south civil war, the UN, or any other good ideas that don't quite work in harmony.

Mysticism is a word too, take it away like zen does, nothing added. Then what is it? There are unseen mystics walking around, there is the institutional version which lays religious overtones, yada, yada (on and on).

Perhaps, you answered your question when you observed the external nature of Taoism. ofc, the Buddhists will take issue with the word "eternal". lol Everything is there, untouched.

linda

ps: Spike, what is there to separate from? :111:

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:29 pm

humanity is a very interesting creature.
Oneday they play football match in between and the other day they kill eachother in a war :jump1:

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Dan74
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Re: Unification

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:23 pm

lindama wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:32 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:10 am
I guess in Buddhism we begin to realise that our ideas of self, of other, of objects out there and me in here are just that - ideas, which have no substantial reality. So like Spike said 'no what to separate from'.. But this of course, can be just another idea, until there is the enduring recognition.
sure, just that there is no enduring recognition, only talk about it. From that point of view Buddhism/seeking/stages are a setup to go beyond.
No enduring recognition? I read the Buddha and the patriarchs to mean that complete enlightenment is not fable. How do you read it?


Seeking and stages are of course provisional, but throwing it all out too soon is like jumping out of the proverbial boat before crossing the treacherous waters.

In the meantime, I do what I can.

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Enver M.
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Re: Unification

Post by Enver M. » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:19 pm

Pablo wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:45 am
Enver M. wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm
as i'm trying to figure out something
Enver, trying to figure out thing is a distraction from your real practice. There is doubt fueling your practice. That's good. Now stop all your games and give yourself to it. Otherwise, you're just playing Zen.
Thank you Pablo.I'll try.

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lindama
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Re: Unification

Post by lindama » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:33 pm

enduring in the sense that one notices and keeps blabbing about it.... unless your karma is to teach
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:23 pm
lindama wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:32 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:10 am
I guess in Buddhism we begin to realise that our ideas of self, of other, of objects out there and me in here are just that - ideas, which have no substantial reality. So like Spike said 'no what to separate from'.. But this of course, can be just another idea, until there is the enduring recognition.
sure, just that there is no enduring recognition, only talk about it. From that point of view Buddhism/seeking/stages are a setup to go beyond.
No enduring recognition? I read the Buddha and the patriarchs to mean that complete enlightenment is not fable. How do you read it?


Seeking and stages are of course provisional, but throwing it all out too soon is like jumping out of the proverbial boat before crossing the treacherous waters.

In the meantime, I do what I can.

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