What is called ignorance?

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Enver M.
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What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:57 pm

WHAT IS CALLED IGNORANCE?

Bhikkhus, what is ignorance?

Not knowing suffering,
Not knowing the origin of suffering,
Not knowing the cessation of suffering,
Not knowing the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
This is called ignorance.


From "Samyutta Nikaya" of the Buddha
Adapted from the Vietnamese version.
http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/index.cfm?id=338

:jaw:
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In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Kaya » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:30 pm

What is called "rhetorical question"?

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[james]
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by [james] » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 am

Why do people see in themselves the possibility of ignorance, I wonder. Can a bee or a horse or a bonobo be ignorant? I would say that there is no ignorance outside of the word itself and the concepts we attach to that word. What are we ignoring? Do we live much of our lives in a mode of “ignoring”?

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Dan74
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:11 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 am
Why do people see in themselves the possibility of ignorance, I wonder. Can a bee or a horse or a bonobo be ignorant? I would say that there is no ignorance outside of the word itself and the concepts we attach to that word. What are we ignoring? Do we live much of our lives in a mode of “ignoring”?
A surprising question, James.

When I bump against the sharp corner of my kitchen table, in that moment I was ignorant, or unaware, of the relevant physical dimensions and positions of the two objects.

And it seems to me in life this lack of awareness resulting in bumping against some aspect of our lives, happens pretty often, almost constantly to a greater or lesser extent, as we wish things or ourselves to be other than they are, or to stay the same. The chief of them, possibly, the mental cramp of hanging on to an identity, things, people, circumstances, a sense of me and mine, while ignorant that this seeming security blanket is the very cause of our suffering.

I take it you see this matter very differently?

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:56 am

"Then I learn that, just as many utensils are made from one metal, so too are myriad entities made of the fabric of self."

-ten bulls
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Seeker242
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Seeker242 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:18 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 am
Why do people see in themselves the possibility of ignorance, I wonder.
Because they experience suffering and there can't be suffering without ignorance.
Can a bee or a horse or a bonobo be ignorant?
Yes, they all experience suffering.

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:01 pm

Kaya wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:30 pm
What is called "rhetorical question"?
I AM NOT A LIAR.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:06 pm

Zen is burning like in a glow inside my heart.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Kaya » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:40 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:01 pm
Kaya wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:30 pm
What is called "rhetorical question"?
I AM NOT A LIAR.
Ok, so?

You offered a query, and simultaneously provided the answer. Hence, your question was rhetorical.

And I'm ain't lyin'.

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:42 pm

My strength failing and my vitality exhausted, I cannot find the bull.

ten bulls
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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desert_woodworker
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:52 pm

Ignorance is just not knowing one's actual and original mind.

--Joe
Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind. - Ma Tsu

Liberation is awakening to one's original nature. - Ma Tsu

The World is all that is the case. -Ludwig Wittgenstein

Why weigh anything heavy?

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:27 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:52 pm
Ignorance is just not knowing one's actual and original mind.

--Joe
:namaste: Joe,

I think that's the main point.

ALL I wish is like to be those Zen masters who do the things whatever and whenever he likes to do. that those like in the movies.

that's all.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:57 pm

Could everything be talking about that?
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Kaya » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:21 pm

Enver M. wrote:
ALL I wish is like to be those Zen masters who do the things whatever and whenever he likes to do. that those like in the movies.

that's all.
Which movies?

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm

Kaya wrote: Which movies?

You are right.

There are different kind of Zen masters.
Those hero ones, drunken ones, or have a life styLe like stray dogs etc.
They have one common side is that they are all kungfu masters and know fighting those I watch in the movies.

Yet, my favorite ones which i wish to be like are the ones that live like 'stray dogs'.
If you ask what is it to live like a stray dog is that you live a life like a stray dog as you do the things whatever and/or whenever you want.

well, that's why may be my life standard or status is only in accordance with it. :)
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Kaya » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:52 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm
There are different kind of Zen masters.
Those hero ones, drunken ones, or have a life styLe like stray dogs etc.
They have one common side is that they are all kungfu masters and know fighting those I watch in the movies.
Ah, yes, like Jackie Chan in "The Legend of Drunken Master" (1994), or "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" (2000), with Yun-Fat Chow as Master Li Mu Bai?
Enver M. wrote: Yet, my favorite ones which i wish to be like are the ones that live like 'stray dogs'.
If you ask what is it to live like a stray dog is that you live a life like a stray dog as you do the things whatever and/or whenever you want.
I don't know: did these movie characters always do as they pleased?

I'm not sure that kung fu master = zen master. Meido might have an opinion.

(Jackie Chan: Jackie "Zen"?)

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Dan74
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Dan74 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:03 pm

I take it you are joking, Enver?

When all you want to be is to be Enver, that is no one special, then maybe you get closer to being a Zen master, I guess..

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:40 pm

Einstein has said imagination is important.something like that.

And i trust my imagination.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:42 pm

Kaya wrote: Ah, yes, like Jackie Chan in "The Legend of Drunken Master" (1994), or "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" (2000), with Yun-Fat Chow as Master Li Mu Bai?

:)
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Dan74
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Dan74 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:44 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:40 pm
Einstein has said imagination is important.something like that.

And i trust my imagination.
Zen Master Einstein!

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