What is called ignorance?

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.
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[james]
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by [james] » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:26 am

Enver M. wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:40 pm
Einstein has said imagination is important.something like that.

And i trust my imagination.
Indeed! Imagination is a very useful means of exploring what it is that we call zen.

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:43 am

Dan74 wrote: Zen Master Einstein!
Ah, yes!
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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[james]
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by [james] » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:01 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:11 am
[james] wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 am
Why do people see in themselves the possibility of ignorance, I wonder. Can a bee or a horse or a bonobo be ignorant? I would say that there is no ignorance outside of the word itself and the concepts we attach to that word. What are we ignoring? Do we live much of our lives in a mode of “ignoring”?
A surprising question, James.

When I bump against the sharp corner of my kitchen table, in that moment I was ignorant, or unaware, of the relevant physical dimensions and positions of the two objects.

And it seems to me in life this lack of awareness resulting in bumping against some aspect of our lives, happens pretty often, almost constantly to a greater or lesser extent, as we wish things or ourselves to be other than they are, or to stay the same. The chief of them, possibly, the mental cramp of hanging on to an identity, things, people, circumstances, a sense of me and mine, while ignorant that this seeming security blanket is the very cause of our suffering.

I take it you see this matter very differently?
Bumping into a table is not ignorance, it’s not paying attention. It becomes ignorant when, knowing that the table is there, one continues to bump into it, repeatedly, perhaps expecting a favorable outcome (no bruises) rather than the inevitable “ouch”.

Similarly, as you describe, we are bumping into aspects of our lives, circumstances and conditions that keep arising, with which we are quite familiar, but which we choose to avoid, to ignore.

So from the view of a Buddhist practice, where we endeavor to engage in the life experience in a wholesome way, I find that a meaning of ignorance as a willful act of ignoring what we know or sense to be true is more useful than one suggesting a deficit of knowledge. We already know what we need to know as students of zen. Nevertheless, all to often, we continue to ignore it.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:32 am

My academic Religion teacher at Columbia, Prof. Theodor Herzel Gaster (1906-1992) said that,

"Unfortunately, Religion requires imagination".

Not so much!, for our practice in Zen Buddhism, though, IMO. The less imagination the better. More emphasis on the physical, please, and then even forget about THAT, once it's in place.

Such is as I see it,

--Joe (R.I.P., Professor... )

Theodor_Herzl_Gaster_Barnard_College_Columbia_Univ_NYC.jpg
Theodor Herzl Gaster (1906-1992)
Theodor_Herzl_Gaster_Barnard_College_Columbia_Univ_NYC.jpg (13.28 KiB) Viewed 250 times

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42 am

He was right.And you're right too.

In a muslim country, for instance the dreams take the place of imagination.Most of us shape his life through dreams.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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desert_woodworker
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:30 am

Enver, that's interesting. Thank you! --Joe
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42 am
In a muslim country, for instance the dreams take the place of imagination. Most of us shape his life through dreams.

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:45 am

What is your wish or goal?

_/\_
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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desert_woodworker
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:52 am

I just practice as my late Teacher, Ch'an Master Sheng Yen taught. I'm not seeking or wishing. As for goals, I "wish" to live a good life, and not to be blinded by views or thoughts.

Does Ignorance have something to do with this? Yes: Correct Practice and much good luck can evaporate it. A Teacher is needed. --Joe
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:45 am
What is your wish or goal?

_/\_

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:50 am

I make a simple comparison between the Zen and the other religions in my mind.That comes to me that Zen is very pure among the other religions or beliefs whatsoever.you know there are no rituals not boxes of books you have to read and so on.

So, I think to myself that if zen's place is this among others, which seems to be very pure practice, I've come to a conclusion that while studying Zen we should be even that much pure.
And just be ignorant! Not much of knowledge but just pure practice should be in the center of our study.

My first review was in general(look) and the second one is more subjective which is in a small diameter.Something like because of that so is that!!

What do you think?
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Dan74
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Dan74 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:11 pm

All Zen training places that I know of have a curriculum of books they recommend and discuss. In Korea, the Seon monks and nuns spend some time studying the Sutras. Out of all Buddhist schools, Zen has probably produced the largest amount of books. So not sure, Enver. Purity is not big in Buddhism, more of a Hindu concept. Keeping one's ethics pure can be a good foundation for practice. But in the ultimate sense what is there to keep pure? Reading books and koan collections, one is well-served not to proliferate more and more concepts, imagine oneself to be this and that. But some basic Buddhism can be very useful. Then again you were probably asking Joe, so never mind.

_/|\_

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:45 pm

Okay
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Dan74
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Dan74 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:53 pm

Regarding rituals, there is plenty. But they serve a purpose. How one manages, handles him or herself through the various rituals and demands, says a lot about practice. Chinese and Korean sanghas tend to be a bit more lax, in my experience, while the Japanese tend to be more exactling. Each approach has its pros and cons.

Ultimately, it's the practitioner who makes this or that. But we live in the world, practice in the world, so the extent to which we can bring the practice from the cushion into the world is what really matters, IMO.

_/|\_

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:57 pm

Well my style is unique.
Which I'm working on.
It is stray dog style.For an eye looking outside it lives like a stray dog like do whatever & whenever he wants.I guess it will respond my needs as a lay person.which have been talk about some.so,thanks.

_/\_

ps.I came to zen from hippie culture.
you know when the age move forward I look if I can do sth significant ;)
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

as the years move it takes the respect of the place of love :jump1:
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:35 pm

Some fifteen years ago when I was young were the days i was entering a punk life.The first book i read on zen was the Zen Flesh Zen Bones.At the first pages D.T Suzuki was talking about the hippie youth in US and Zen.Almost at the first pages I had fell in love with zen.

~just a personal anectode
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:35 pm

I notice something which I want to share

Everything I have done up today will serve to the 'Dog'.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Kaya » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:34 pm

Look forward to it!

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Enver M.
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Re: What is called ignorance?

Post by Enver M. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:02 pm

Peace is every step we take.

~Shunryu Suzuki
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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