Ideal Posture

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.
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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:50 pm

To adopt correct posture, become one, in mind, and body. Do not let the mind, or the body, wander outside, with the fishes, with the birds, with the trees ; adopt - right here - a posture of - hmmmm, how should I call it - ideality? or perhaps - reality! the middle - way.

See? The more hints you add, the more unintelligible and useless is your speech.

The correct posture is full lotus with the back straight and the mind focused inward. But you can do it lying down if you must.

Sounds like that would be a refreshing way to practice.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:06 pm

I think that 'correct' and 'ideal' may be different.

I also think that correct and ideal may be different for different practitioners at different times.

One can adopt any posture and cultivate it until it becomes ideal, a "text-book" image of form and poise.

Such a posture might be chair-sitting; seiza; or variations of "Lotus". Yes, Buddha reportedly taught that standing and lying down are postures, too.

(Statues of the Buddha show him lying down only when on his death-bed, though; I don't want to emulate that too soon).

In Ch'an- and Zen-Buddhist practice-places, varieties of cross-legged postures are usually recommended, taught, developed, compassionately corrected, and practiced together. But the posture that one can "strike" is correct, and can become ideal, with practice, adjustment, and correction.

As I see it.

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:17 pm

Sounds like you know what you're talking about, friend. I wouldn't dispute a single word. But I wonder - can you say one word that is true, up and down and all around? Without the hints, gimmicks, ironies, puns, etc. Just one true word to fill space and time. What would you say, sir?

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Enver M.
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Enver M. » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:47 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:39 pm
I thought this thread was about "Ideal Posture", not punctuation. So what about Ideal Posture, Mason? Thanks, could be an interesting thread... . _/\_ ,

--Joe

as i said joe--

do you eat your breakfast? "yes" Go wash the dishes!

as seen here washing the dishes is the correct posture..

ah wait, ; you have asked the ideal posture, and that is hidden in the Ultimate Goal;

and what is the ultimate goal;

it is to save all beings

means

if you locate yourself at the center of the perfect point that is full accessible at where you could make everyone happy by the selflessness of your self that my friend is the ideal posture.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:16 pm

if you locate yourself at the center of the perfect point that is full accessible at where you could make everyone happy by the selflessness of your self that my friend is the ideal posture.
You're a good friend. :waving:

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Enver M.
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Enver M. » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:04 pm

You, too. :waving:
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:15 pm

hi, Enver,
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:47 pm
if you locate yourself at the center of the perfect point that is full accessible at where you could make everyone happy by the selflessness of your self that my friend is the ideal posture.
And that's more than a sitting posture. It's a stance. Well observed, Bodhisattva! :hatsoff:

The recently-deceased Roshi Bernie Glassman (1930-2018) -- He was an American Zen priest who then transferred to being a lay teacher in 2006 -- of New York, founded a sangha (The White Plum Asangha) in which there are three principles, or "tenets":

Not Knowing;
Bearing Witness (deep listening); and,
Taking (Compassionate) Action.

That serves to summarize for me the actual behavior of an awakened person, just as for me the 10 or 16 Buddhist lay Precepts describe the actual behavior of a Buddha.

But of course one's stance or posture in life as a Zen Buddhist -- or at least a Zen Buddhist practitioner -- depends on correct practice. And, correct and proper sitting posture is key within zazen, while..., "Without zazen, there is no realization, and no fruition of the practice" (--Rbt. Aitken Roshi).

best,

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:05 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:15 pm
--Joe
Not bad, but still you get sixty blows. :hatsoff:

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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:51 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:05 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:15 pm
--Joe
Not bad, but still you get sixty blows. :hatsoff:
Thanks, sure; and I can give as good as I get (I'm a maker of the sticks, and have to know how to use them).

--Joe

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:06 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:17 pm
Sounds like you know what you're talking about, friend. I wouldn't dispute a single word. But I wonder - can you say one word that is true, up and down and all around? Without the hints, gimmicks, ironies, puns, etc. Just one true word to fill space and time. What would you say, sir?
Off-topic.

--Joe

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:52 pm

Kaya wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:27 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:If you'll come to the desert, I know I can help you; it will take only a few weeks.
Icky! Condescending, patriarchal, presumptuous, ignorant, etc.
In that case, it will likely take a good deal longer.

And in any case, Ms., I only wish to help.

Let's set misunderstandings aside now and go back on-topic.

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:11 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:06 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:17 pm
Sounds like you know what you're talking about, friend. I wouldn't dispute a single word. But I wonder - can you say one word that is true, up and down and all around? Without the hints, gimmicks, ironies, puns, etc. Just one true word to fill space and time. What would you say, sir?
Off-topic.

--Joe
I read this while sitting in a recliner, relaxing. So thank you (really) for keeping on topic.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:23 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:11 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:06 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:17 pm
Sounds like you know what you're talking about, friend. I wouldn't dispute a single word. But I wonder - can you say one word that is true, up and down and all around? Without the hints, gimmicks, ironies, puns, etc. Just one true word to fill space and time. What would you say, sir?
Off-topic.

--Joe
I read this while sitting in a recliner, relaxing. So thank you (really) for keeping on topic.
Aw, darn. I'd hoped that my "one-word" would have thrown you right out of your hammock, LAR-ruffing! :)

But, yes, "on-topic" seems important, lest the environs here homogenize into ...goop.

I think goop is pretty much welcomed in the "Anything Goes" [oops: EDIT -- it's called "Lounge", here] section, and that's why I post a lot there. Along with fuzzy-set-screw (er-r, fukasetsu) and Keith. Et al.! Join in, Guan-Yin.

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:30 pm

Your one-word hyphenated Zen is impressive. Would probably kick me out of the hammock if I wasn't so darned lazy. But, that's why I posted this in the Beginners Space. I sometimes forget my status, open my mouth, and defile the Dharma. So I will try to shut-up and-listen a little bit more, in the future.

I'll check out that section. Maybe I can play around there without embarrassing (bare-assing?) myself too much.

With love and gratitude,
M

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:51 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:30 pm
With love and gratitude, M
Much love, gratitude, and willingness to learn from what you may have to say about your residential years practicing, etc., Hugh bet, as may come out in the ordinary progress of affairs, here.

Glad to be aboard, yessiree, Bob. I mean, Mason,

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:06 am

I spent about 2 and a half years of residential training in the Kapleau lineage, trying to correct my posture (my diaphragm had become kind of frozen) but wasn't able to break through my obstructions. Mu eluded me as usual. I then moved to ZMM (from Maezumi's 3 lines) for some months, and made a little bit more progress there, but still my posture was crappy and I felt tension all around. Meanwhile, I got married to the love of my life, got separated from her due to co-dependency issues, and my Mother died from breast-cancer. I needed to opt-out from monastic training for a while.

Lately I've been studying the first turning of the wheel (suttas) and have made more progress than I even thought possible. Everything I say here is informed quite simply by the work I've done reading suttas. So I will never stop venerating them or urging people to practice them. It is a wonderful, wonderful vehicle - The Buddha's, no doubt.

:559: (love this particular emoji)

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:44 am

Good deal, Brother Mason. Much in common.

I'm not a Mason, though, and more of a, well, Carpenter. Bricks, wood; all in the same ballpark.

--Joe

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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:47 am

BTW, Mason, John (Daido) Loori was a dear friend of mine. Not teacher, but friend. Mebbee we can swap stories, sometime. -Joe

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:41 am

One thing I forgot to mention was the big scandal that happened there during my time. One of the Teachers drank a little too much Tea (ayahuasca) and it caused a big-old stink-storm. Was very disturbing and sad and bewildering for pretty much all of us. The Sensei was a good guy - he gave good hugs. It was unfortunate to watch him fall off the straight-and-narrow. :114:

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Mason
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Re: Ideal Posture

Post by Mason » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:48 am

Now Shugen is a roshi, and sadhu for that. He seems a good Buddhist.

Speaking honestly, I'm in love with the one-word Zen you offer. I wonder if I'll ever exhaust-it. Methinks it is a better technique than the Shakespearean peacocking method, which is honestly a big of a turn-off. :namaste:

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