Mahakasyapa's Zen

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.
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loves' the unjust
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Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:50 am

As Nothing has said that was a koan at the Mumonkan.

All in the 48 koans.

I've totally forgot.

CASE 6. THE BUDDHA'S FLOWER

Once upon a time when Shakyamuni Buddha was in Grdhrakuta mountain, he twirled a flower in his finger and held it before his congregation. Everyone was silent. Only Maha Kashapa wholeheartedly smiled. Buddha said, "I have the eye of the true teaching, the heart of Nirvana, the formless form, the mysterious gate of Dharma. Beyond the words and beyond all teachings to be transmitted, I now pass this on to Maha Kashapa."

Mumon's Comment:Golden-faced Gautama impudently forced the good people into depravity. He sold dog meat under the name of mutton. And he thought he made it! What if all the audience had laughed together? How could he have handed the eye of the true teaching or if Kashapa had not smiled, how could he have transmitted the teaching? If you say it could be transmitted, he is like a golden-faced old huckster swindling at the city gate, and if you say it cannot be transmitted, how does he hand it on to Maha Kashapa?

At the turning of a flower, 
The snake (his disguise) shows his tail.
Maha Kashapa smiles,
Every monk does not know what to do.


Is it true? Is it Mahakasyapa's Zen.

or is it just Zen.

how much do we understand him?

how much we are living it in everyday life?

and so forth...

anyone want to talk about?

:namaste:
cooper

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:29 pm

Mummon has a good point. Everyone has to choose whether to be a wild fox or not. Equanimity demands that the flower is the same as dog meat. A very wise person told me everything becomes nothing. But nothing has no existence, it is merely as described - "nothing." Trying to find symmetry here is as useless as it is misleading.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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[james]
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by [james] » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:57 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:29 pm
Mummon has a good point. Everyone has to choose whether to be a wild fox or not. Equanimity demands that the flower is the same as dog meat. A very wise person told me everything becomes nothing. But nothing has no existence, it is merely as described - "nothing."
Equanimity accepts that a flower may, or may not, be dog meat.
Equanimity accepts that one may, or may not, be a wild fox.
“Nothing” has exactly the same existence as “everything”.

“Things are not what they appear to be, nor are they otherwise.”

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:35 pm

When your mind is empty.You begin to fly.I think same mechanism.
cooper

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[james]
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by [james] » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:01 pm

“Alan Watts (or someone else maybe)” wrote: Angels fly because they take themselves lightly.

avisitor
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by avisitor » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:39 am

Sorry, but I hold the unpopular opinion (held by very few) that ...

The general populace see Koans as the essence of Zen
And in such beliefs, many speak in riddles and non-speak.
There are some out there, who do this riddle type of speak, believing that is Zen

This is not to say that the Zen Buddhist masters of yester-years were false
It is just the general perception of Zen by lay people ..
because Koans were what lay people know were being used

An example of such, ...
A monk asked Joshu, “What is the meaning of the patriarch’s coming from the west?”
Joshu said, “The oak tree there in the garden.”
After comment by Mumon, it becomes a Koan

However, Zen Buddhism is not all riddles and non-speak
It isn't stopping thoughts or sitting with a blank mind
After much disciplined practice under a teacher's guidance,
a disciple's state would be ripe for the Buddha's transmission
The flower held up by Buddha was enough to find the person
who received the transmission and continued Buddha's lineage
What is this transmission? The Buddha's mind, Buddha nature, truth, ....???
Which, after Mumon's comment, has now turned into a Koan
Now published and passed on as Koans
Enver M said, "Is it true? Is it Mahakasyapa's Zen.

or is it just Zen.
Is it true? I don't know. I wasn't there.
Is it Zen? It was Buddha's teachings. Zen, don't know??

I am sure someone else will have a different opinion
Sorry if I offended anyone

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:46 pm

There is not anything more
than Mahakasyapa's Zen
IN ZEN
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Seeker242
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by Seeker242 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:50 am

loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:50 am

Is it true? Is it Mahakasyapa's Zen.

or is it just Zen.
Is what true? Mahakasyapa has no zen, all he had was a flower.
how much do we understand him?
What is there to understand about a flower?
how much we are living it in everyday life?
What is there to live in everyday life besides everyday life?

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:53 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:50 am
loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:50 am

Is it true? Is it Mahakasyapa's Zen.

or is it just Zen.
Is what true? Mahakasyapa has no zen, all he had was a flower.
I mean there is it Mahakasyapa's zen or our zen.
eer i mean how much do we embrace his teaching.

no, mahakasyapa has a zen.
that which is outside of words and letters.

how much do we understand him?
What is there to understand about a flower?
how much we are living it in everyday life?
What is there to live in everyday life besides everyday life?
do you have a mindset? i have
living the mahakasyapa's mind plan

ps. Following White Method is mine.
cooper

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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by Seeker242 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:00 am

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:53 pm

I mean there is it Mahakasyapa's zen or our zen.
eer i mean how much do we embrace his teaching.
What teaching? What teaching is there in just a flower? A flower is just a flower. :bow2:

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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:51 pm

Enver,

The story of Mahakasyapa's awakening or realization is a great one.

I'd say that ideally "Mahakasyapa's 'zen' " is also ours (the one that is available to us, I mean, and whether we come realize it or not: "No-mind").

Of course, what's required to awaken to it -- realize it -- is correct practice (and good, cooperating causes and conditions).

By the way, the "flower" that the Buddha is reported to have held and twirled was probably a whole branch of flowers. It's said to have been a flower of the Palash Tree (see photo below). These bloom in the jungle near where the Buddha was preaching at that time. The flowers are bright red-orange, like fire. The tree is sometimes called the "Flame Tree of the Forest". It is "Palash", or Butea monosperma.

Imagine the Buddha silently holding aloft a sprig of these bright flowers! :) (but it's recorded that only one person smiled, when he realized the same mind as the Buddha's)

--Joe

Palash_tree_Butea_monosperma.jpg
Palash_tree_Butea_monosperma.jpg (49.29 KiB) Viewed 423 times

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:25 pm

understand.
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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:58 am

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:00 am
loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:53 pm

I mean there is it Mahakasyapa's zen or our zen.
eer i mean how much do we embrace his teaching.
What teaching? What teaching is there in just a flower? A flower is just a flower. :bow2:
Could Mahakasyapa's teaching be the balanced state?(of mind)
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by Seeker242 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:30 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:58 am
Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:00 am
loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:53 pm

I mean there is it Mahakasyapa's zen or our zen.
eer i mean how much do we embrace his teaching.
What teaching? What teaching is there in just a flower? A flower is just a flower. :bow2:
Could Mahakasyapa's teaching be the balanced state?(of mind)
Why does it need to be something more than just a flower?

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:59 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:30 pm
loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:58 am
Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:00 am
loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:53 pm

I mean there is it Mahakasyapa's zen or our zen.
eer i mean how much do we embrace his teaching.
What teaching? What teaching is there in just a flower? A flower is just a flower. :bow2:
Could Mahakasyapa's teaching be the balanced state?(of mind)
Why does it need to be something more than just a flower?
I think I like to categorize the things.
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:39 pm

In my country everything remains to luck.
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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:19 am

loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:39 pm
In my country everything remains to luck.
Where is the luck?
It is where you meet with the balanced zen.
Mahakasyapa's zen is the luck itself.
All buddhist friends are luck for me.
Happy to have a friend like you Seeker242.
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by Spike » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:54 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:19 am
loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:39 pm
In my country everything remains to luck.
Where is the luck?
It is where you meet with the balanced zen.
Mahakasyapa's zen is the luck itself.
All buddhist friends are luck for me.
Happy to have a friend like you Seeker242.
"The dictionary defines luck as 'believing that whatever happens, either good or bad, to a person in the course of events is due to chance, fate or fortune.' The Buddha denied this belief completely. Everything that happens has a specific cause or causes and there must be some relationships between the cause and the effect. Becoming sick, for example, has specific causes."

Good Luck and Fate

https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda09.htm

No problem using this term in a colloquial or humorous, ironic context, but buddhism looks to karma rather than stuff like this. Luck has nothing to do with so-called balanced zen.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:14 pm

It is in my country i was telling what's going on.

There i mean to use the word luck as in the means of food may be which is taken to be eaten while traveling.

in the last picture of 10 ten bulls a sage give something.What is that supposed to be?

I get what you say.if you don't like the word luck no problem.
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Re: Mahakasyapa's Zen

Post by Spike » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:00 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:14 pm
It is in my country i was telling what's going on.

There i mean to use the word luck as in the means of food may be which is taken to be eaten while traveling.
?
Seems more like 'lunch'!
loves' the unjust wrote: in the last picture of 10 ten bulls a sage give something.What is that supposed to be?
Picture 10: Compassion informed by wisdom, ie., a helping hand.
loves' the unjust wrote: I get what you say.if you don't like the word luck no problem.
Not at all what I said.

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