Zen Tigers and Pussy

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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jundocohen
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by jundocohen » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:34 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:07 am
I'm all for sincere and appropriate action to address injustices. It's hacking Zen teachings to fit these ends that I find questionable.
It is nothing new in Soto Zen, and Dogen devoted a whole chapter of Shobogenzo to "hack" Zen teachings in order to wag a finger at folks who put women Zennists down. For someone in the 13th Century, he was ahead of his time. He wrote, in "Raihai-Tokuzui" ...
“When you meet teachers who expound the
supreme state of bodhi, have no regard for their race or caste, ... Nevertheless, stupid people who do not listen to the Buddha's
Dharma think, “I am a senior bhikṣu. I cannot prostrate myself to a junior
who has got the Dharma.” “I have endured long training. I cannot prostrate
myself to a recent student who has got the Dharma.” “I sign my name with
the title of master. I cannot prostrate myself to someone who does not have
the title of master.” ... “I am the Chief
Administrator of Monks.18 I cannot prostrate myself to laymen and laywomen
who have got the Dharma.” “I am [a bodhisattva] of the three clever stages
and ten sacred stages . I cannot prostrate myself to bhikṣuṇīs and other
[women], even if they have got the Dharma.”
... there may be [men] who would refuse to prostrate them-
selves to women monks who are teachers that have received the Dharma, and
who are [the men's] elder sisters, aunts, and so on.45 Because they do not
know and will not learn, they are close to animals, and far from the Buddhist
patriarchs. ... Why should men be higher? Space is
space, the four elements are the four elements,47 the five aggregates are the
five aggregates,48 and women are also like this. As regards attainment of the
truth, both [men and women] attain the truth, and we should just profoundly
revere every single person who has attained the Dharma. Do not discuss man
and woman.
http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/BDK/bdk_se ... um=B2582_1

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:25 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:40 am
The article in the OP is like a bad cocktail of watered down Zen Buddhism, female chauvinism and propagation of neo-liberal politics. ;)
yes! thank you for your discernment :115:

and, as I said above: Miaozong deserves more than to be used as a pawn in this article.

linda

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:31 pm

bokki, if you have a PC, you can right click the pic... the save as screen will come up and you can save it... it will go to downloads. I usually then rename so I know....
bokki wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:27 am
a bit off topic, but, lobster, would u b so kind as 2 post a link to the pic of d tiger in ur op>??
thnx.
holy cod..lol.. u just always break me up, but me a simpleton, sometimes i dont understand
all of ur jokes, tho id luv 2.

big heya for u.

b

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bokki
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by bokki » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:53 pm

linda, so nice 2 talk 2 u!
yes i have saved d pic, but i dont know whose is it, or d artist.. d pic of d tiger is TOP..
id like to know..thnx 4 ur help, L.A...luv u. u know.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:56 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:20 am
Saying "pitiable" and "no difference" is itself pitiable discrimination. It is the Timeless "Time's Up" Koan.
Gassho, J
Trouble is, it's not time's up.... it's a bad cocktail or a bowl of spaghetti... take your pick. Either way... indigestion ... and while we may feel good, nothing happens at the end of the day. Pitiable fits.

I have sensibility and sympathy for the unending oppression and persecution of women, men suffer their own form. Still, I dislike the pink hat movement. It is misplaced energy which may feel good to some which will accomplish nothing. On the plus side, perhaps it raises awareness, and, it holds the possibility to evolve into a mature way of being. It seems childish and shrill to me, I don't know. I have many friends, many in zen, who marched. Some went to Washington. As far as I can see, it's a distraction.

I have been at SFZC and chanted the names of the women ancestors. Seems the exception tho. I don't know. SFZC seems a unique manifestation.

Jundo has presented the zen teachings, all good. I do not regard that article by Grace as a zen teaching. It's a good exercise in reading between the lines for agenda, manipulation and propaganda.... something that we are exposed to daily.

This conversation is an open invitation for men and women to sit together not knowing.

linda

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:03 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:07 am
I'm all for sincere and appropriate action to address injustices. It's hacking Zen teachings to fit these ends that I find questionable.
hi Dan, seems I misunderstood you when you were wondering if Grace made the story up. there's more than a hint of stereotyping there, conflating the story with the political feminist.

I agree with your comment above, it's more than hacking zen teaching. it isn't zen teaching. see above comments...

I must confess there was a hint of vengence on my part... I was ready to have you eat the pink hat until I realized we are saying the same thing. :hatsoff:

linda

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Dan74
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by Dan74 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:29 pm

Haha, Linda, maybe we should both be eating hats, of assorted colours and shapes!
nachos.png
nachos.png (479.96 KiB) Viewed 1378 times

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fuki
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by fuki » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:35 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:29 pm
maybe we should both be eating hats
Cat-Eating-Food-Funny-Picture.jpg
Cat-Eating-Food-Funny-Picture.jpg (38.96 KiB) Viewed 1375 times
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by Nothing » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:38 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:25 pm
Nothing wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:40 am
The article in the OP is like a bad cocktail of watered down Zen Buddhism, female chauvinism and propagation of neo-liberal politics. ;)
yes! thank you for your discernment :115:

and, as I said above: Miaozong deserves more than to be used as a pawn in this article.

linda

Thanks for the flowers Linda :110:

Nice article on Miaozong by prof Levering,I agree, thank you for sharing it. :namaste:

Viktor

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:22 am

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:29 pm
Haha, Linda, maybe we should both be eating hats, of assorted colours and shapes!
You can have the pink hat with the cherry on top.... I'll take the chocolate with whipped cream. :cat:

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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by jundocohen » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:55 am

lindama wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:03 pm

... there's more than a hint of stereotyping there, conflating the story with the political feminist.
I am confused why the word "feminist" would not apply to a woman who did something radical for equal treatment. Granted, I doubt that they had the word in old China, but it sure seems to apply.

And in a corner of Buddhism famous for the shocking ... killing the pussy and putting sandals on the head ... why so much resistance to a little pink "pussy" on the head?

Who is it that is making judgments here about the right and wrong way to interpret Miaozong? The article by Grace Schireson is from January 2017, right before the "Pussy Grabber in Chief" was about to become President of the USA> (If someone overseas does not know about that ... )

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... as-changed

But we have a couple of "pussy grabbers" of our own in the Zen World. Maybe it is most fitting to heed the words of Joshu "Come A Little Closer, My Dear" Sasaki from his book of teachings, "Buddha is the Center of Gravity." Apparently, Sasaki "Roshi" did not quite agree that things are as simple as "pussies and penises grave delusion" ...
A man thinks, "What a beautiful woman she is." A woman thinks, "What a strong man he is, just like King Kong." If you know that the beautiful lady is yourself, that King Kong is yourself, then you have no need to desire anything more. When you completely realize that King Kong is yourself, then you have the desire to melt into his big hairy chest. (Laughter) Sa! This is teisho.

Having desire means that you like or dislike the objective world. You long for the world because it has everything that you don't. Every man likes every woman, whether she is beautiful or ugly, because woman has something that man does not. The same is true of woman, for man has something that she does not, so women like men.

Shakyamuni said that human consciousness doesn't work perfectly; that is why humans hate or long for the objective world. If human beings do not train themselves to manifest as perfection itself, they cannot be free. As I told you, however, absolute being doesn't belong to the objective world. The absolute world embraces subject and object together. The human being, believing he belongs to the subjective side and standing in the small mind, observes absolute being as object. Actually, that absolute being cannot be an object. Shakyamuni said that absolute being has no color, no form, no voice and exists as nothingness or emptiness. Absolute being works as complete, perfect emptiness embraces subject and object. If you want to see God or Buddha, you must manifest yourself as emptiness. At the moment you manifest your imperfect consciousness as nothingness, your imperfect consciousness becomes perfect and illuminated.

The first step of Zen practice, therefore, is manifest yourself as nothingness. The second step is to yourself completely into life and death, good and evil, beauty and ugliness. Shakyamuni said that if you want to be free, you must not prefer only good or dislike evil. Well, now, what about you? You are educated all your life to venerate God and reject evil. Zen education is totally different: it teaches you how to swallow God and the devil all at once. You are able to give yourself completely and make your home in a beautiful woman or in lice or in a man with a twisted nose. That is Zen practice.
...
Likewise, the moment you look at a beautiful woman, you give yourself to her completely, so you have no desire. There is no subject or object. That means that you are playing in the world of source. But you separate from her very quickly. You and the flower soon split apart. You go back to the world where subject and object exist, to the world of relationship between subject and object. Then you look at the beautiful woman and say, "How beautiful she is!" You now have personal nature. From the point of view of your personal nature you look at things. Then the thought of being one with her arises. In cruelty you have picked the flower. It would be better to leave the beautiful flower in the field, but your ego cannot leave it alone and picks it. If you are standing on the experience of having the center of gravity, then your personal nature can leave the beautiful woman alone to be simply beautiful and you won't pick the flower.
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Joshu- ... ravity.pdf
Well, Sasaki may have "swallowed God and the devil all at once," but he sure got some of his students to swallow part of him! Grace Schireson was also one of the leaders of the Committee of Zen Teachers sent to first investigate the allegations against Sasaki, and to try to offer some resources to his victims. That is also where this "Pussy Hat" article come from. Quoting from the report [available here]:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... eport.html
There were consistent reports of sexual behavior by Joshu Sasaki, often initiated in the formal setting, privacy, and "face-to-face" encounters of the sanzen room. There were many accounts of Sasaki asking women to show him their breasts, as part of "answering" a koan or to demonstrate "non-attachment." Some women repelled these requests and further physical advances. Many could not because they were physically overwhelmed, and subsequently experienced sexual behavior including kissing, viewing of breasts or genitalia, fondling of breasts or genitalia, viewing or being asked to touch his genitalia, oral sex, and vaginal intercourse. Several women recounted that they were asked to sit on his lap, presumably to be comforted. This physical intimacy progressed to sexualized behaviors initiated by Sasaki. There were no accounts of Joshu Sasaki asking men to show their genitalia in the course of "koan work." There were accounts of forced sexual and physical assault (against women's protests) which resulted in one report to the Los Angeles District Attorney's office and one report to a rape crisis center. There was another report to a Child Welfare agency concerning Sasaki and a sexual encounter with an underage girl.
I repeat that Grace Schireson wrote her "Pussy Hat" article after months of work with the Sasaki community, aiding in the investigation and recovery, not to mention like work she did with the Eido Shimano "Roshi" Sangha.

So, now, who is using the Teachings "as a pawn," "pitiable," "niggling" "grabbing attention (not to mention vaginas)" "hacking Zen teachings "?

And some here are upset about the misuse of Zen by wearing a little hat, and Miaozong "rolling in her grave"!

Gassho, J

Image
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:25 am

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:55 am
lindama wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:03 pm

... there's more than a hint of stereotyping there, conflating the story with the political feminist.
I am confused why the word "feminist" would not apply to a woman who did something radical for equal treatment. Granted, I doubt that they had the word in old China, but it sure seems to apply.

And in a corner of Buddhism famous for the shocking ... killing the pussy and putting sandals on the head ... why so much resistance to a little pink "pussy" on the head?

Who is it that is making judgments here about the right and wrong way to interpret Miaozong? The article by Grace Schireson is from January 2017, right before the "Pussy Grabber in Chief" was about to become President of the USA> (If someone overseas does not know about that ... )
you boys don't get it. The word "feminist" is a politicized term... it has nothing to do with a zen master like Miaozong. It has nothing to do with the feminine. yin energy. For me, feminism as a political term, is a yang energy opposing a yang energy.... it goes against nature which is a balance of yin and yang as well as the absence of yin and yang. No... the term feminist in my mind does NOT apply to old China. Miaozong, as I see her, made a response.... she had no expectation for the results.... ofc, it's beyond most. I am not impressed by the Buddist corner famous for the shocking.... Miaozong had no intention to be shocking. I find this particularly repugnant... I've seen it in hippie zen as well. sigh I have noticed that we in modern culture, including myself, turn towards ppl who go against the norms.... we are so captive, it seems a freedom, but it's a false freedom. People who are naturally themselves are simply naturally themselves.

Grace's article is a bad cocktail. There is no need to admire it. If you can't see the currents, look again. I will repeat, Grace used Miaozong as a pawn to further her anger and hatred for both the oppression of the feminine and the newly elected president. As deplorable as he may be, it has little to do with him... we need to look to our own hearts. So, yes, I am no stranger to Grace in a few venues.... her article is more than not acceptable.

We can take judgement one step further.... just like fire and water, there is no resolution... until we forget. An open heart is not troubled. As my teacher always said, there is nothing that is not zen... chaos, stillness and beyond.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... as-changed

But we have a couple of "pussy grabbers" of our own in the Zen World. Maybe it is most fitting to heed the words of Joshu "Come A Little Closer, My Dear" Sasaki from his book of teachings, "Buddha is the Center of Gravity." Apparently, Sasaki Roshi did not quite agree that things are as simple as "pussies and penises grave delusion" ...
stillness and chaos, bow down

personally. I am sick to death of reheasing this traume as if it shouldn't have happened. We 3-4 yrs on zfi, no solutions.... nor should there be
A man thinks, "What a beautiful woman she is." A woman thinks, "What a strong man he is, just like King Kong." If you know that the beautiful lady is yourself, that King Kong is yourself, then you have no need to desire anything more. When you completely realize that King Kong is yourself, then you have the desire to melt into his big hairy chest. (Laughter) Sa! This is teisho.

Having desire means that you like or dislike the objective world. You long for the world because it has everything that you don't. Every man likes every woman, whether she is beautiful or ugly, because woman has something that man does not. The same is true of woman, for man has something that she does not, so women like men.

Shakyamuni said that human consciousness doesn't work perfectly; that is why humans hate or long for the objective world. If human beings do not train themselves to manifest as perfection itself, they cannot be free. As I told you, however, absolute being doesn't belong to the objective world. The absolute world embraces subject and object together. The human being, believing he belongs to the subjective side and standing in the small mind, observes absolute being as object. Actually, that absolute being cannot be an object. Shakyamuni said that absolute being has no color, no form, no voice and exists as nothingness or emptiness. Absolute being works as complete, perfect emptiness embraces subject and object. If you want to see God or Buddha, you must manifest yourself as emptiness. At the moment you manifest your imperfect consciousness as nothingness, your imperfect consciousness becomes perfect and illuminated.

The first step of Zen practice, therefore, is manifest yourself as nothingness. The second step is to yourself completely into life and death, good and evil, beauty and ugliness. Shakyamuni said that if you want to be free, you must not prefer only good or dislike evil. Well, now, what about you? You are educated all your life to venerate God and reject evil. Zen education is totally different: it teaches you how to swallow God and the devil all at once. You are able to give yourself completely and make your home in a beautiful woman or in lice or in a man with a twisted nose. That is Zen practice.
...
Likewise, the moment you look at a beautiful woman, you give yourself to her completely, so you have no desire. There is no subject or object. That means that you are playing in the world of source. But you separate from her very quickly. You and the flower soon split apart. You go back to the world where subject and object exist, to the world of relationship between subject and object. Then you look at the beautiful woman and say, "How beautiful she is!" You now have personal nature. From the point of view of your personal nature you look at things. Then the thought of being one with her arises. In cruelty you have picked the flower. It would be better to leave the beautiful flower in the field, but your ego cannot leave it alone and picks it. If you are standing on the experience of having the center of gravity, then your personal nature can leave the beautiful woman alone to be simply beautiful and you won't pick the flower.
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Joshu- ... ravity.pdf
Well, Sasaki may have "swallowed God and the devil all at once," but he sure got some of his students to swallow part of him! Grace Schireson was also one of the leaders of the Committee of Zen Teachers sent to first investigate the allegations against Sasaki, and to try to offer some resources to his victims. That is also where this "Pussy Hat" article come from. Quoting from the report [available here]:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... eport.html
There were consistent reports of sexual behavior by Joshu Sasaki, often initiated in the formal setting, privacy, and "face-to-face" encounters of the sanzen room. There were many accounts of Sasaki asking women to show him their breasts, as part of "answering" a koan or to demonstrate "non-attachment." Some women repelled these requests and further physical advances. Many could not because they were physically overwhelmed, and subsequently experienced sexual behavior including kissing, viewing of breasts or genitalia, fondling of breasts or genitalia, viewing or being asked to touch his genitalia, oral sex, and vaginal intercourse. Several women recounted that they were asked to sit on his lap, presumably to be comforted. This physical intimacy progressed to sexualized behaviors initiated by Sasaki. There were no accounts of Joshu Sasaki asking men to show their genitalia in the course of "koan work." There were accounts of forced sexual and physical assault (against women's protests) which resulted in one report to the Los Angeles District Attorney's office and one report to a rape crisis center. There was another report to a Child Welfare agency concerning Sasaki and a sexual encounter with an underage girl.
I repeat that Grace Schireson wrote her "Pussy Hat" article after months of work with the Sasaki community, aiding in the investigation and recovery, not to mention like work she did with the Eido Shimano Sangha.
pitiable... we must rise above the witch hunt. Grace does not have my admiration for this pursuit. there is no freedom in this.
So, now, who is using the Teachings "as a pawn," "pitiable," "niggling" "grabbing attention (not to mention vaginas)" "hacking Zen teachings "?

And some here are upset about the misuse of Zen by wearing a little hat, and Miaozong "rolling in her grave"!
linda

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jundocohen
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by jundocohen » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:46 am

lindama wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:25 am
Miaozong, as I see her, made a response.... she had no expectation for the results.... ofc, it's beyond most. I am not impressed by the Buddist corner famous for the shocking.... Miaozong had no intention to be shocking. I find this particularly repugnant... I've seen it in hippie zen as well.
How can you or I speak for Miaozong? How can you be so sure? Do you have some special channeling to this old Chinese woman? Seems like she was trying to "shock" someone as a naked nun! You can have your Miaozong and leave others to theirs!
Grace used Miaozong as a pawn to further her anger and hatred for both the oppression of the feminine and the newly elected president.
And you seem to be using Miaozong to express your resentment of old hippies!

I don't think that Grace was expressing "anger and hatred" (I have known her for a long time, she is anything but the "angry and hateful" kind). You seem to deny and support the oppression of the feminine and pussy grabbing in that case! (I am sure that neither is true).
there is no resolution... until we forget.
Time for the George Santayana " Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" quote. You would like to forget Sasaki and Shimano and just "move on"? You seem to express a certain "anger and hatred" of your own about "feminists" and those who chose to forget AND remember clearly so that it does not happen again. I recommend to forget AND remember as one!

Gassho, J

PS -
you boys don't get it.
Just because you don't have a penis, take no position of superiority. And don't call me "Boy."
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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lindama
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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by lindama » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:58 am

I said what I had to say

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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by guo gu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:58 am

jundo,
loving you... :111:
be well,
guo gu

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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by jundocohen » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:04 am

guo gu wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:58 am
jundo,
loving you... :111:
be well,
guo gu
Loving you too.

But let us keep our hands to ourselves.

Gassho, Jundo
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by guo gu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:02 am

:106:

hands?

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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by Nothing » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:09 am

guo gu wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:02 am
:106:

hands?
I guess Jundo refers about grabbing, but could be wrong :)


Gashhou

Victor

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Re: Zen Tigers and Pussy

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:49 am

Nothing wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:09 am
guo gu wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:02 am
:106:

hands?
I guess Jundo refers about grabbing, but could be wrong :)


Gashhou

Victor
You and Love are never seperate, not even holding hands!
Who dares to harmonize?
:106:

For Guo Gu;
[SPOILER]
Beloved, my forehead rests, unmoving,
on the cool stone floor before you.

Here, there is no defining line to separate
flesh and bone from this pillow of stone.

Tonight I seem to drift through myself,
astonished by the radiant brilliance
of your exquisite light’s reflection
pulsing softly in my heart.

Because I am only here to love you,
my palms turn naturally upward,
holding my heart in my hands.

This infinite Presence is all there is,
now wearing the forms of you and I.

Even in and as these fragile forms,
it still outshines all pretense of duality.

This is what it does, it is what we do.

All ears are pressed against infinity.
All of space is sighing, listening.

We both follow backwards into that.
We seem to move, yet we’re standing still.

A single syllable appears before our eyes
which we cannot forget, we simply can’t.

This incense I burn between my fingers –
a slight sensation before the final ash.

In that momentary flicker of recognition,
of unobstructed clarity, here it is now,
one word that breaks the trance
of any doubt or hesitation:

Ah . . .
~sir bob
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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