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Crystal
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Crystal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 pm

I hope to goodness that Jundo Roshi's health is better, and is now strong, and that he and his family have a fine year in 2019, and beyond.
I'll second that, Joe. _/|\_


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michaeljc
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Dear Members

Post by michaeljc » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:00 am

I haven't logged on here for a while. Haven't been sitting so nothing worthwhile to say. No sitting = no Zen

Anyway - up comes this thread. Wow - I was shocked

Mind, there are clubs for every rank in the military for good reason

Though, I always valued teachers' input - not because they were teachers but because they were people on a particular path. A fascinating path.

I am not like some here who pay homage to a teacher just because they are a teacher. Just like in Catholicism there are wolves in habits and worse - career teachers. I know who I consider to be teachers and who I don't

Whatever, a Zen forum that bans teachers from contributing as teachers feels most odd - kind of like alcohol-free wine. I don't partake of that

The real question that everyone is avoiding is: who acted like teachers and who did not? A true teacher is not a provocative attention-seeking grand-stander (IMO). Not wanting to moderate "teachers"? Sorry, it comes with the territory

My prediction - the new structure won't work any better than the last, maybe even worse. Why? its the tide sillies! Rejoice in it, it is life

Cheers All

M

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 am

michaeljc wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:00 am
Rejoice in it, it is life
:namaste:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Dear Members

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:24 pm

Crystal, thanks,
Crystal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:10 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 pm
I hope to goodness that Jundo Roshi's health is better, and is now strong, and that he and his family have a fine year in 2019, and beyond.
I'll second that, Joe. _/|\_
I'm so glad that our brother Jundo came to realize that I am not countering him or criticizing him, and that I am only dubious and rightfully (...by my lights... ) skeptical about certain points in the pure doctrine of Soto Zen Buddhism as known primarily in Japan.

I had no such reservations about T'sao Tung Ch'an Buddhism in China, primarily because the Japanese Zen figure "Dogen" was not ever yet involved (he came later, to reform Zen practice and Zen institutions as he knew them in his homeland of Japan, not in China, where all was original). I saw (as I see it... ), and still see, that much of what's called "Soto" Zen Buddhism is "Dogen-ism". I am not a Japanese Soto-insider, though, and probably this is WHY I can say such a thing without compunction. My Ch'an master was heir to both T'sao Tung and Lin-Chi wings of Ch'an, and could (and did!) teach in both ways, as he felt a student required. Remarkable!, wonderful, compassionate, and ...well, I am just too lucky a young fellow.

Jundo Roshi wrote later, near the time of his banning, that he saw I was a person "with a heart of gold". Dunno, but OK. We've been on the best terms since, ...and, I maintain, even earlier, at least from my point of view.

Hail! ;)

New Year's best wishes,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:38 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:24 pm
Jundo Roshi wrote later, near the time of his banning, that he saw I was a person "with a heart of gold". Dunno, but OK. We've been on the best terms since, ...and, I maintain, even earlier, at least from my point of view.
I never saw anyone who didn't have a "heart of gold", even the most demonic deluded minds do. But in a Buddhist context "heart of gold" might be translated as bodhicittotpāda or "arising bodhicitta" hence p(P)ractise is endless.

People just have problems with his non-confirmative "doubts" regarding "rebirth" and other textual references/concepts.
Which I never understood since all talks about rebirth or anything in Buddhadharma is expedient means, why would anything be examined as "it is so" or "it is not so" but that's just me. He never tried to manipulate anyone into "thinking like him"
So much fear involved, hence we grasp and turn away.
:107:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Dear Members

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:11 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:38 pm
I never saw anyone who didn't have a "heart of gold", even the most demonic deluded minds do.
Off topic, but Neil Young sings a good song about it, included on his "Harvest" LP record album released February 1, 1972. ;) Cheers, --Joe

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Crystal
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Crystal » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:23 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:11 pm
fuki wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:38 pm
I never saw anyone who didn't have a "heart of gold", even the most demonic deluded minds do.
Off topic, but Neil Young sings a good song about it, included on his "Harvest" LP record album released February 1, 1972. ;) Cheers, --Joe




.
Last edited by Crystal on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:30 pm

heart of gold wrote: I crossed the ocean for a heart of gold
I've been in my mind, it's such a fine line
so close, yet the chasm is so wide...
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:46 pm

Larry wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:28 pm
For people missing Meido, in addition to Dharma Wheel, he often posts on the "Zen Dialogue" Facebook forum. And for people missing Jundo, apart from Treeleaf, he posts daily on the "Soto Zen Buddhism" Facebook forum.

Sorry for any upset caused by mention of Jundo :D
Jundo just started posting on Zen Dialogue, for the first time, three hours ago. Maybe he still lurks around these parts :D

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Enver M.
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Enver M. » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:40 pm

A person who you don't like
is saying -only one thing to you (in real)
and that is
follow me.

(that's all)
larry
no need for mathematic !!!
:waving:

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Enver M.
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Enver M. » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:16 am

I have been thinking for more than 15 years.Instead of this, if i have had done meditation for 6 years like the Buddha did, i would have been get enlightened already many times.


ps: That's why teachers are necessary
no need for mathematic !!!
:waving:

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Mason
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Mason » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:19 am

Meido,

You might find this interesting. But first, what is the password to the gateless barrier?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marici_(Buddhism)
:namaste:

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Dan74
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Re: Here's How To Kensho

Post by Dan74 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:03 am

Regardless of the merits of Kim's techniques, this thread makes something of a mockery of the recent rule of no teachers on the forum. Here is Kim, a self-proclaimed teacher, coming to the forum to teach something that ostensibly trumps the mainstream Zen teachings. And no actual Zen teachers to respond to him..


Is this a sensible state of affairs, I wonder?
Not Site Admin any longer, despite what it says.

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bukowski
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Re: Here's How To Kensho

Post by bukowski » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:12 am

Hi all.

I won't get into the main debate, as I, like all of us I am sure have seen these form of debates aired out time and again. For me, whatever works is all good. Different roads to the same destination as far as I am concerned.

I will, however say that I like having teachers around the forum, even if they challenge my perception or I downright disagree with them. No one has to listen to or agree with a teacher on an Internet forum, but I do think all of these years of practice, wisdom and and experience can add validity and strength to our forum.

Metta, bukowski :namaste:

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:15 pm

I moved a few posts here to keep the discussion about Zen Space being dedicated to lay people and not permitting ordained Zen teachers be members in one place.

Dan; When conceiving the ‘rule’ (no ordained Zen teacher), I didn’t consider non-Zen teachers. On consideration I believe it’s a different issue. There are religious teachers who may be interested in Zen as a practice and who may come here as lay Zen people to ask questions and learn. I didn’t feel presenting an alternative practice method was unacceptable, but proselytization will not be permitted.

Bukowski; I understand the downside of ‘no ordained Zen teachers’ at Zen Space. I also think a Dharma Friends approach has it’s benefits. And as a “Friend of the Way” (to use James Ford’s formulation) I do not want to moderate ordained Zen teachers.

Please, this is getting old, but if you feel the need to comment on this matter, please, do it here, not in other topics.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Dan74
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Dan74 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:48 pm

Clyde,

Kim is not coming and saying "do you guys want to try Dzogchen?" Mind you, the tag at the top says "an online place to discuss Zen Buddhism", so that would seem to be out of place.

He is coming and saying "here's my method for quick kensho" - kensho is a Zen term. And he is saying that Zen teachers get it wrong, while he's got it right. While he have no Zen teachers to comment...

So not quite "another tradition", but Zen-MkII..

So we have no actual Zen teachers allowed, but faux Zen teachers given free reign... :103:
Not Site Admin any longer, despite what it says.

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bukowski
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Re: Dear Members

Post by bukowski » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:32 pm

Hi Clyde.

Sorry, I hadn't commented on this subject before and I posted in the wrong place. And I completely understand the discomfort in trying to moderate a venerable teacher. I acutely remember asking rev nonin to town down some of his comments on e-sangha. I felt ridiculous doing it. Rev nonin had forgotten more than I had ever learnt!

I'm not sure what the answer is but you have my respect and support for taking on the forum.

Regarding Kim, I find it great practice to watch my own thoughts when I read posts that I don't agree with, or even upset me. Can I feel those emotions, look deeply into why they offend me and then not respond? We all have to own our own responses after all.

Just some grist for the mill

Metta, bukowski. :namaste:

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:44 pm

Dan; I get your point. When I first read Kim’s post on Facebook almost a year ago, I didn’t know his background and read the post solely for content. There didn’t seem to be anything particularly new in what he presented, including the criticisms and quotes of Zen teachers. And the practice instructions seemed familiar (an emptiness practice and body scan) and similar to meditation instructions sometimes given by Zen teachers; so I saw nothing controversial in the post itself.

It does feel different knowing that the poster is (or at least, considers himself) a teacher in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and warrants attention that it not become proselytization.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:46 pm

Bukowski; No problem and I’m glad you shared your thoughts. I’m also relieved to know that I’m not the only lay person who feels discomfort moderating a venerable teacher; hence, my (drastic) solution :shock:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

Caodemarte
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:02 pm

If you read carefully Kim’s instructions as a whole they diverge significantly from instructions given in Theravada and Zen. The idea of mechanically generating kensho, assuming Kim means “seeing the true nature,” just contradict both. I don’t know if they are similar to instructions given in some Tibetan groups. If anyone finds them of value, that is great. However, I am still puzzled over their relevance to a Zen discussion forum, but I don’t define that. :106:

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