How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

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How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

I think the Forum is doing just fine and don't have any major suggestions for change.
12
18%
The Forum is quite OK, but a few things could be better (see below for a list of suggestions to vote on).
9
14%
The Forum, as it stands, is not great. Major changes are needed (see below for a list of suggestions to vote on).
4
6%
I don't hold much hope for this place.
1
2%
Suggestion 1: Moderation is too lax and needs to come down on the time-wasters and the rudeness.
13
20%
Suggestion 2: Moderation is too strict and needs to lay off and let posts and threads be.
2
3%
Suggestion 3: The conversation is dominated by the same voices and I can't really relate to it very much.
5
8%
Suggestion 4: I wish Teachers and more experienced folks chimed in more.
9
14%
Suggestion 5: I wish there were fewer "Teachers" and people setting others straight. I feel too intimidated by the self-appointed heavy-weights to join in the conversation or ask something.
3
5%
Suggestion 6: I don't see the relevance of a lot of what is said to Zen or to my life and practice.
7
11%
 
Total votes: 65

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:19 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:05 am
Fuki, it's us who is the joke
I for one, don't consider knock knock jokes as time-wasters. :D
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KeithA
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by KeithA » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:27 pm

lindama wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am
what is meant by "being a bit koany"? it sounds like wise guy zen stuff??? it gives koans a bad name... not that she would care...

Koans are not koany as far as I can see....


ps... if I remember, there was one online meditation event at zfi
I agree completely, Linda. It's the usual passive-aggressive swiping. :103:

------------------

As to the topic, I voted for it being just fine. It will never be everything to everyone. I actually thought the lounge aspect of things was being kept nicely in one thread. I don't mind the clowning around, but I do understand the usefulness of keeping topics from wandering too far and degenerating down to off-topic banter. Anyway, it's serious, but not that serious.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

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jundocohen
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:05 pm

KeithA wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:27 pm

I agree completely, Linda. It's the usual passive-aggressive swiping. :103:
For those who may have trouble including the context accompanying the sentence and understanding the concrete point of the discussion ...
there are times to be a bit "Koany" in language as ordinary words, and ordinary logical statements, just don't cover it.
I.e., there are times when we Zen folks (all of us) speak in Koans and Zenspeak because ordinary grammar and wording are not able to convey aspects of Zen Wisdom. Such usage needs to be distinguished from people who just say strange things and think it all "Zen." Please don't assume that because a Soto person says something about "Koans" it is a swipe. We all honor and dance with Koans.

It was not a Koan itself, just an ordinary sentence making an obvious (or I thought it should be to most Zen people) point.

Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by jundocohen on Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:15 pm

el gatito wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:13 pm
bodhi wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:27 pm
... Speaking of common metaphorical sense, is this place the college or the ‘Zen Lounge,’ down the street from the college?
What does your ideal Zen Forum look like?
Good question. It looks just like the Zen Lounge.
If there were a "Zen Lounge" website, would it require moderation? If so, what sort of rules it would be based upon?

I thought about only one rule: if a forum member were "OK" -- then no matter what, and where in the sub-forums they post. Everything would fit just fine. Otherwise, the member who is not "OK" has to be banned and all of their messages removed. As simple as that. That would be the only rule. At the site owner's sole discretion. Kind of a Tough Dictatorship based Free Zen Lounge.
That is actually a cool idea, how about split the Forum into two ... one for more traditional or typical Zen discussion and practice, one for "anything goes"?
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:33 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:05 pm

It was not a Koan itself, just an ordinary sentence making an obvious (or I thought it should be to most Zen people) point.
Yes it was "obvious" here however, Shakya himself could be a member here and still "misinterpretate" words and letters, since "knowing" or "understanding" arises due to relation.
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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:50 pm

I'm interested in the 10 "moderation is too lax" votes.

Could ppl who voted that give some (general) examples?
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:18 pm

Ohayo :hatsoff: ,
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:05 pm

It was not a Koan itself, just an ordinary sentence making an obvious (or I thought it should be to most Zen people) point.
It read pretty obvious over here, and completely benign. Good shorthand that says a lot, I thought.

As long as "koany" does not mean "corny" (pronounced in one U.S.A.-dialect or other). :lol:

:namaste:

--Joe

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boda
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by boda » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:51 pm

el gatito wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:13 pm
bodhi wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:27 pm
... Speaking of common metaphorical sense, is this place the college or the ‘Zen Lounge,’ down the street from the college?
What does your ideal Zen Forum look like?
Good question. It looks just like the Zen Lounge.
If there were a "Zen Lounge" website, would it require moderation? If so, what sort of rules it would be based upon?
I suppose what I wrote wasn’t clear, el gatito. The suggestion was that, metaphorically speaking, zenone is more like a lounge than a temple. I could list many reasons to support this view but I don’t believe that’s necessary, though I will argue the point if you disagree and would like to argue it.
I thought about only one rule: if a forum member were "OK" -- then no matter what, and where in the sub-forums they post. Everything would fit just fine. Otherwise, the member who is not "OK" has to be banned and all of their messages removed. As simple as that. That would be the only rule. At the site owner's sole discretion. Kind of a Tough Dictatorship based Free Zen Lounge.
This could maybe work for an actual lounge if it were popular enough. Exclusively could be part of the brand and make for a very loyal clientele. It would of course be a very shallow brand strategy, applealing to egos rather than more evolved sensibilities. Not what would normally be expected from any religious based enterprise so this approach would be deeply flawed from inception.

In any case, zenone’s primary issue is apparently a lack of membership. If you believe that arbitrarily banning members will improve the situation then try it.

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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by boda » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:07 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:05 pm
there are times when we Zen folks (all of us) speak in Koans and Zenspeak because ordinary grammar and wording are not able to convey aspects of Zen Wisdom.
An aspect of zen wisdom such as? Give us an example. And explain why any koany, from anyone (it’s rather easy to do the koany), may not be able to do this.

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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:08 am

I'd say words cannot convey "redness", much less prajna, or karuna (functions and actions of mind which arise in Emptiness in seamless response to conditions and events just as they occur).

(Jundo may have other and different things in mind to evidence as examples, and I'm interested in that, too; Tnx, b.)

--Joe

p.s. I opine that the usual course of the ordinary use of words is toward servicing a (habitual, and conditioned, consensus- ) dualistic appreciation of a situation, or the world. To "service" a different appreciation, words are well to be used differently, even VERY differently. Well, I think poets know this, too, even poets who have not sat a single round of zazen in life so far, and who have not come to see original nature (but they may want to, now). :)
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

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KeithA
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by KeithA » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:10 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:05 pm
KeithA wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:27 pm

I agree completely, Linda. It's the usual passive-aggressive swiping. :103:
For those who may have trouble including the context accompanying the sentence and understanding the concrete point of the discussion ...
there are times to be a bit "Koany" in language as ordinary words, and ordinary logical statements, just don't cover it.
I.e., there are times when we Zen folks (all of us) speak in Koans and Zenspeak because ordinary grammar and wording are not able to convey aspects of Zen Wisdom. Such usage needs to be distinguished from people who just say strange things and think it all "Zen." Please don't assume that because a Soto person says something about "Koans" it is a swipe. We all honor and dance with Koans.

It was not a Koan itself, just an ordinary sentence making an obvious (or I thought it should be to most Zen people) point.

Gassho, Jundo
I much prefer the term "Zenspeak". I understand what is being pointed to. And it is not at all "koany". There is grand canyon of difference between live words and dead words.

No biggie...it's just that people saying strange things and koans have little to do with each other.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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KeithA
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by KeithA » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:15 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:50 pm
I'm interested in the 10 "moderation is too lax" votes.

Could ppl who voted that give some (general) examples?
I think there are a sizable group of folks who prefer to not have the banter, something along the lines of what Dharmawheel does. But, the Zen forum over there is mostly crickets, with the occasional very interesting thread. Larry was doing a pretty neat trick of pulling the banter into the lounge thread. I thought that was a great solution. It's my favorite thread, but if people don't like it, they don't have to open it up. :112:
You make, you get.

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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:11 am

KeithA wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:10 am

I much prefer the term "Zenspeak". I understand what is being pointed to. And it is not at all "koany". There is grand canyon of difference between live words and dead words.

No biggie...it's just that people saying strange things and koans have little to do with each other.

_/|\_
Please do not think that only your Tradition owns the Koans. They are not of you or yours, and we can speak of them too and how they are danced in all our Traditions. "Koany" is not a matter of live or dead. Have no such preferences. You and I are not the last word on Koans, nor the first.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by KeithA » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:48 am

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:11 am
KeithA wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:10 am

I much prefer the term "Zenspeak". I understand what is being pointed to. And it is not at all "koany". There is grand canyon of difference between live words and dead words.

No biggie...it's just that people saying strange things and koans have little to do with each other.

_/|\_
Please do not think that only your Tradition owns the Koans. They are not of you or yours, and we can speak of them too and how they are danced in all our Traditions. "Koany" is not a matter of live or dead. Have no such preferences. You and I are not the last word on Koans, nor the first.

Gassho, J
Maybe so, maybe so...

No speech was made concerning ownership. If the words "live" and "dead" are not within one's ability to comprehend, then there is nothing left to be said.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:32 am

KeithA wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:15 am
Larry was doing a pretty neat trick of pulling the banter into the lounge thread. I thought that was a great solution. It's my favorite thread, but if people don't like it, they don't have to open it up. :112:
I stopped using that thread because it got tainted, so it's no longer "unconditioned" by the past. But it's never enough it seems, I'm kind of at the limit of adapting at the moment, meaning reasonably keeping other people in mind (eventhough our relation is non-objective mostly) their tendencies, background, culture etc and still keeping this "character" alive if that makes sense, but I'm sure you're no stranger yet comfortable to the paradox.

I noticed lots of posts get deleted in threads and no one's complaining or dwelling on that, which I've never seen in other forums happening, so I've never witnessed a more "mature" crowd then we currently have, so I dont understand the current voting of mods being to lax, they move,split and delete all the time and I dont see anyone complaining about it.

I'm slightly concerned that pointing out "unwanted behaviour" is just the desire to sedate and turn ppl into zombies according to personal preferences, I think the balance is fine now but I notice a subtle tendency lately that it might swing to the zombie side.

Also ppl more and more talking about what is real zen, and "true zen ppl" know the diff etc is also a sign of this, its best to just be honest to ppl constructively as if they were your own family and be direct instead of dropping subtle messages of suggestive manipulation.

For instance now I could say "only certain ppl know what I'm talking about which most zennies do not see"
But I didn't, well for demonstrative purposes I did.
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:32 pm

Let's not "pick and choose" very much.

But when things become too awkward, I'd advocate dealing with them, "by any means possible", including full moderation of a party's (or pair's) posts, and continuing through ejection from the game.

Kudos to all sharp-eyed Umpires!

:bow2:

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:51 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:32 pm
Let's not "pick and choose" very much.

But when things become too awkward, I'd advocate dealing with them, "by any means possible", including full moderation of a party's (or pair's) posts, and continuing through ejection from the game.

Kudos to all sharp-eyed Umpires!

:bow2:

--Joe
:560:
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bokki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by bokki » Wed May 16, 2018 12:52 pm

LOL, joe, LOL...
:
I'd advocate dealing with them, "by any means possible"
lol, what do u mean by saying 'any means'?

lol, joe, lol..

what r u saying here, tho?

what?
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burst into flames.
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bokki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by bokki » Wed May 16, 2018 1:03 pm

btw, no 1 will submit 2 a vote.
votes will submit 2 u .
vote.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed May 16, 2018 2:42 pm

b.,

;)

Ha, ha, well, I'm not a moderator. If we're patient, and if someone misbehaves, we may find out what's meant.

(I'm not suggesting "the Nuclear option". Something short of that but as effective would seem more Buddhistic, anyway).

--Joe
bokki wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:52 pm
LOL, joe, LOL...
:
I'd advocate dealing with them, "by any means possible"
lol, what do u mean by saying 'any means'?

lol, joe, lol..

what r u saying here, tho?

what?

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