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Kim
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:47 pm

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kim » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:41 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:44 pm
Dan; I get your point. When I first read Kim’s post on Facebook almost a year ago, I didn’t know his background and read the post solely for content. There didn’t seem to be anything particularly new in what he presented, including the criticisms and quotes of Zen teachers. And the practice instructions seemed familiar (an emptiness practice and body scan) and similar to meditation instructions sometimes given by Zen teachers; so I saw nothing controversial in the post itself.

It does feel different knowing that the poster is (or at least, considers himself) a teacher in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and warrants attention that it not become proselytization.
An important correction: I have never claimed to be authorised in any Tibetan buddhist lineage. Despite of having had some association with some lamas, I do not have authorisation and have never claimed so. I am neither formally associated with the Tibetan buddhist establishment, in general. About my connection with zen buddhism, I discussed briefly in the kensho thread. I can't help wonder how these things become authority-issues so easily... Please, view my posts casually and relax about any authority issues. When we're all tumbling around in this vast washing machine of samsara, that stuff is of teeny tiny importance.

In one of my posts in the kensho thread, I posted this article by Vincent Horn, The Core Features of Pragmatic Dharma. Please read it.

I understand and mentioned it in the OP that some people won't like what I was going to say with the obvious criticism towards renown zen-masters. I am sorry if it hurts people's sentiments but when something isn't true, you can't make it true. I am looking at this solely from the point of view of pragmatism in dharma, and I decided to jump in after almost a year since Clyde's suggestion, because in my view zen buddhism and buddhists could benefit a lot of the basic ways of pragmatic dharma.
bukowski wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:12 am
I will, however say that I like having teachers around the forum, even if they challenge my perception or I downright disagree with them. No one has to listen to or agree with a teacher on an Internet forum, but I do think all of these years of practice, wisdom and and experience can add validity and strength to our forum.

bukowski wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:32 pm
Regarding Kim, I find it great practice to watch my own thoughts when I read posts that I don't agree with, or even upset me. Can I feel those emotions, look deeply into why they offend me and then not respond? We all have to own our own responses after all.
I've been involved on several forums along the years and feel about it the same way as bukowski. When someone says things we don't like, I feel that firstly, this gives me an opportunity to actually do my practice on whatever reactions my mind comes up with and secondly, it offers me an opportunity to hone my understanding of dharma, through discussing and/or correcting false views.

With respect and kindness to all,

:namaste:

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:31 am

Kim; This thread was intended to discuss the ‘no ordained Zen teacher’ rule, not about you.

To be clear, I didn’t say you were authorized. According to the Open Heart website, you are a “full time dharma teacher” in the terma-lineage. Since this forum is devoted to the Zen Way, I’ll leave it to you and Tibetan Buddhists to determine your standing.

But you can’t have it both ways - you can’t claim to be a Tibetan Buddhist teacher and also deny having any association with Tibetan Buddhism.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

Kim
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:47 pm

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kim » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:24 am

clyde wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:31 am
Kim; This thread was intended to discuss the ‘no ordained Zen teacher’ rule, not about you.

To be clear, I didn’t say you were authorized. According to the Open Heart website, you are a “full time dharma teacher” in the terma-lineage. Since this forum is devoted to the Zen Way, I’ll leave it to you and Tibetan Buddhists to determine your standing.

But you can’t have it both ways - you can’t claim to be a Tibetan Buddhist teacher and also deny having any association with Tibetan Buddhism.
That's right but several posts were about my presence on this forum. I hope my post helped to clarify it.

Aha, OK. The thing is that tantric buddhism or vajrayana and Tibetan buddhism are two different things. See this article by David Chapman, Vajrayana is not Tibetan Buddhism (and vice versa).

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Crystal
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Re: Dear Members

Post by Crystal » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:35 pm

I looked for the Open Heart website as I hadn't heard of it before ...and found this on the first page:

An Open Letter to Buddhist Forums

by the Open Heart Sangha and Teachers


Several accusations and allegations have been made about Kim Katami and Open Heart/Pemako Buddhism (OH) on Dharma Wheel (DW) forum as well as various buddhist Facebook groups such as Buddhism UK, Webcasts Buddhist Teachings and Contemporary Buddhism. Open Heart has also been denied the right to publish information about our dharma events on the aforementioned, as well as some other Facebook (FB) groups.

Continues at the link: https://www.en.openheart.fi/34701
This is all completely new to me, because (with respect) I'd never heard of Kim Katami before I became a member of this group.

_/|\_

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Kanji
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kanji » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:16 am

Crystal wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:35 pm
I looked for the Open Heart website as I hadn't heard of it before ...and found this on the first page:

An Open Letter to Buddhist Forums

by the Open Heart Sangha and Teachers


Several accusations and allegations have been made about Kim Katami and Open Heart/Pemako Buddhism (OH) on Dharma Wheel (DW) forum as well as various buddhist Facebook groups such as Buddhism UK, Webcasts Buddhist Teachings and Contemporary Buddhism. Open Heart has also been denied the right to publish information about our dharma events on the aforementioned, as well as some other Facebook (FB) groups.

Continues at the link: https://www.en.openheart.fi/34701
This is all completely new to me, because (with respect) I'd never heard of Kim Katami before I became a member of this group.

_/|\_
Thanks for posting this Crystal, it's all new to me also! The terms 'self proclaimed guru' and 'vague' ring bells though! Speaking for myself only I don't find Kim's style sympatico. But then I'm hard to please and have a guru allergy.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:56 pm

if you follow that link, Mr. Kim does call himself the Head Teacher of his sangha, and they do sign on to the fact that he is their Head Teacher, this in and of itself is the practical equivalent of ordination, e/g. his organization recognizes in a formal sense his leadership and authority. That's all ordination ever is, in reality. If a sangha organization places a leader over a group of people who don't accept them, they are de facto not their teacher. That's not the case here.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

Caodemarte
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Dear Members

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:50 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:56 pm
if you follow that link, Mr. Kim does call himself the Head Teacher of his sangha, and they do sign on to the fact that he is their Head Teacher, this in and of itself is the practical equivalent of ordination, e/g. his organization recognizes in a formal sense his leadership and authority...
Being a teacher is not ordination. This is useful to know for both possible legal consequences and for clarity of thought. For example, there are lay and ordained teaches in Zen. There are ordained that are not teachers. Ordination means that one is “authorized” to perform the rituals and “holy offices.” It is basically a license to perform as a ritual specialist. I believe most male Mormons are ordained and have a priestly function. As far as I know, there are no ordained in at least Sunni Islam because there are prayer leaders, theologians, etc., but no priests as such,

Self-ordination works as long as one is clear that one ordained oneself and does not falsely claim that some other organization or person ordained you. People start their own groups all the time. If someone does falsely claim ordination from some group that did not give it to them, it is simple fraud and potentially criminal.

A fun fact: In several SE Asian countries the simple unauthorized wearing of a Buddhist monk’s robe, without any explicit claims, gets you arrested both under the fraud and blasphemy laws.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:06 pm

People also think they know all about Zen because they read Osho or Eckhart Tolle
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:47 pm

"In one of my posts in the kensho thread, I posted this article by Vincent Horn, The Core Features of Pragmatic Dharma. Please read it. "

Done. As Donald Lopez points out, this entire line of reasoning, and it is very popular in the West today, is Western in origin. But it is historically incorrect. See: https://tricycle.org/magazine/modern-bu ... -familiar/ . It hearkens back to when Madame Blavatsky and Henry Steel Olcott went to Sri Lanka and became Buddhists. Theravada Buddhism was in steep decline, and the Elders felt that Olcott could be their savior. You'll discover they erected shrines in his image, etc. etc. The entire paradigm of logical, pragmatic, secular Buddhist Practice comes directly from Olcott. It had a huge impact on Theravada teachers, and it's partly Olcott who is responsible for the modern Vipassana movement. Bear in mind this view has no history before this time-frame. Sadly it puts Western Buddhists somewhat at odds with what Buddhism is in traditionally Buddhist parts of the world. The majority of traditional Buddhist are Mahayana/Vajrayana, where religion and spirituality are major, inseparable components. To dabble in the Dharma and not understand this is a crying shame. Vincent Horn's final paragraph decries lineage and traditional Buddhist schools entirely, attacks the system by which spiritual authority is passed down through teachers and Patriarchs, and in general attacks most of what Buddhism is to traditional Buddhists. And in an insulting manner. Yet another passive-aggressive attack from their camp.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Kanji
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kanji » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:59 am

Isn't its ability to weave together different cultures and devotional practices, from Dao to Bon and various forms of Shamanism, to the more psychological forms of Indian metaphysics and the Western viewpoint, what makes Buddhism so vibrant? It doesn't get bogged down, it flows.

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:54 am

I would agree. I don't know why the traditionalists get so defensive.
Maybe it's an age thing :hide:

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lindama
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Re: Dear Members

Post by lindama » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:45 pm

Kanji wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:59 am
Isn't its ability to weave together different cultures and devotional practices, from Dao to Bon and various forms of Shamanism, to the more psychological forms of Indian metaphysics and the Western viewpoint, what makes Buddhism so vibrant? It doesn't get bogged down, it flows.
That was my expierce Kanji, tho it seems to be rare.... dunno, I haven't been around much.
linda

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:13 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:54 am
I would agree. I don't know why the traditionalists get so defensive.
Like most defensive reactions it's born from fear.

ps I love Blavatsky I read her volumes of the "secret doctrine" in the teen years, perhaps she's my base why I can never really get "traditional" with anything and just look at what works, no matter from what "ism" shelf.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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[james]
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Re: Dear Members

Post by [james] » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:40 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:54 am
I would agree. I don't know why the traditionalists get so defensive.
Maybe it's an age thing :hide:
It is thanks to the traditionalists that we late coming browsers have the bounty of nourishments that we do. There may be nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel but it’s not for everyone.

I don’t think that traditionalists are the ones who are typically defensive. This is more the territory of the fundamentalists obsessed as they are with the alleged superiority of their particular traditions. My sense of traditionalists is that they are not overly interested in whether their skill or knowledge is widely adopted, so long as it is passed on more or less intact in its essence. Traditionalists, unlike fundamentalists, understand, accept, and welcome the subtlety of change. In this respect they are fearless, unthreatened and unthreatening.

The age thing that you mention suggests, to me, something more like ossification and inflexibility rather than the focused intent of the traditionalist. Of course we each have our own understanding of what traditions are and how to maintain and carry them forward, or not. I look upon traditionalists and their steadfast work with gratitude.

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[james]
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Re: Dear Members

Post by [james] » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:12 pm

Kanji wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:59 am
Isn't its ability to weave together different cultures and devotional practices, from Dao to Bon and various forms of Shamanism, to the more psychological forms of Indian metaphysics and the Western viewpoint, what makes Buddhism so vibrant? It doesn't get bogged down, it flows.
If one sees Buddhism as already vibrant and flowing would it not be reasonable for that one to speak up for that particular “Buddhism”? I don’t see that it is Buddhism’s ability to weave together different cultures and practices. People do this for their own reasons, motives and needs. Sometimes the outcome is a good one while on other occasions important essentials are diluted and even lost. Can the traditions you mention really be integrated into a new Buddhist culture as more than flavor without their deeply rooted distinctive practices and understandings? Certainly we can all benefit from other knowledge, but we must also be careful that the sources and methods of that knowledge are not compromised.

Apologies, all this has little to do with the original intent of this “Dear Members” thread

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:39 pm

Some great responses, [james]. I can't argue with any of it.
[james] wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:40 pm
This is more the territory of the fundamentalists obsessed as they are with the alleged superiority of their particular traditions.
Does that imply that any Buddhist who regards Buddhism as superior to, say, Hinduism or Christianity is a fundamentalist?

Spike
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Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: Dear Members

Post by Spike » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:50 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:40 pm
Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:54 am
I would agree. I don't know why the traditionalists get so defensive.
Maybe it's an age thing :hide:
The age thing that you mention suggests, to me, something more like ossification and inflexibility rather than the focused intent of the traditionalist. Of course we each have our own understanding of what traditions are and how to maintain and carry them forward, or not. I look upon traditionalists and their steadfast work with gratitude.
Thanks, sonny!

I go by the motto the Marines actually use in daily life in the Corps, "Semper Gumby", i.e. 'Always flexible'.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:40 pm

Points taken. But what I object to is the gloss "Pragmatic Dharma" meaning we divorce ourselves from Buddhist context entirely, do whatever we want and then cloak it in Buddhist buzz words and sell it as an objectively verifiable Buddhist Truth only because we used the technical terms. I personally don't follow much of Buddhist teachings (I like electronic dance music, and Champagne, for example) but I want to know the context, both historical and in terms of practice where the rubber meets the road. There's not a good argument against being well educated that persuades me.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:46 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:39 pm
Does that imply that any Buddhist who regards Buddhism as superior to, say, Hinduism or Christianity is a fundamentalist?
I never found anyone capable of an objective ruling but you can ask around, preferably one prior to the physical universe oh wait,...no such thing as "Buddhism" or whatever-ism in the "space" prior to being and non-being.... :107: :mrgreen: :cat:

Whoever thinks as his medicine as "truth" should probably be in rehab
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Kanji
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Kanji » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:16 am

[quote=fuki

Whoever thinks as his medicine as "truth" should probably be in rehab
[/quote]

Totally agree. It's amazing how much death and horror searching for truth has cost us jumped up primates! There's no emoji of a monkey with a revolver :112:

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