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Kanji
Posts: 58
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kanji » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am

[quote="[james]

I don’t think that traditionalists are the ones who are typically defensive. This is more the territory of the fundamentalists obsessed as they are with the alleged superiority of their particular traditions. My sense of traditionalists is that they are not overly interested in whether their skill or knowledge is widely adopted, so long as it is passed on more or less intact in its essence. Traditionalists, unlike fundamentalists, understand, accept, and welcome the subtlety of change. In this respect they are fearless, unthreatened and unthreatening.

The age thing that you mention suggests, to me, something more like ossification and inflexibility rather than the focused intent of the traditionalist. Of course we each have our own understanding of what traditions are and how to maintain and carry them forward, or not. I look upon traditionalists and their steadfast work with gratitude.
[/quote]

Brilliant post, as for age I'm 61, but who's counting? FInd I get more left wing as I get older. :wool:

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:16 am

I'm 62. Had an Achilles heel for the last two years. Wish I could skip like you :D

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loves' the unjust
Posts: 544
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Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: Dear Members

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:08 pm

I notice something today.that I'm living life thin.
I think it is better to live the life thick.in living life thick you don't spend extra energy to make your life meaningful.life just show you the way in it's natural flow.you don't concentrate or enter deep in specification (detail). like if there is something to do, just do. thick way of life. in which everything manifest himself obviously.

i don't know may be it is like in the billiards game.you see the ball thin or thick.just don't know where to see thick where to see thin, yet.

Even so I don't understand myself as why I get lost in details this much, either.

or if these fit with traditionalists vs fundamentalists.
cooper

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[james]
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Location: Are we there yet?

Re: Dear Members

Post by [james] » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:02 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:39 pm
[james] wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:40 pm
This is more the territory of the fundamentalists obsessed as they are with the alleged superiority of their particular traditions.
Does that imply that any Buddhist who regards Buddhism as superior to, say, Hinduism or Christianity is a fundamentalist?
... and even other schools of Buddhism.

Maybe it does. Would a Buddhist regarding Buddhism as superior be properly considered a Buddhist upholding right view? If the buddhist clings to this mistaken view and, even more, seeks to impose it on others, refusing to examine the quality of this view, I would be willing to think that, yes, this buddhist has at the very least the makings of a fundamentalist.

One may think and ponder about one’s school, tradition or -ism however one wishes and it is important to do so but at the end “live and let live” is the necessary action.

I came upon this sutta recently:

At Veluvana So.na the householder's son approached the Blessed One. The Buddha said: "Whatever recluses and Brahmans, So.na, hold views about the body, which is impermanent, unsatisfactory and subject to change, such as 'I am better [than you],' 'I am equal [to you],' or 'I am worse [than you]' [likewise 'feeling,' 'perception,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness'], what else are they but folk who do not see things as they really are?

"But, So.na, whatever recluses and Brahmans do not hold such views... What else are they but those who see things as they really are?"

(https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html)

avisitor
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Location: Albany, NY

Re: Dear Members

Post by avisitor » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 am

(A reminder from lindama) The third patriach ...

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When not attached to love or hate,
all is clear and undisguised.
Separate by the smallest amount, however,
and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth.

If you wish to know the truth,
then hold to no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
Kim wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:41 pm
I understand and mentioned it in the OP that some people won't like what I was going to say with the obvious criticism towards renown zen-masters. I am sorry if it hurts people's sentiments but when something isn't true, you can't make it true. I am looking at this solely from the point of view of pragmatism in dharma, and I decided to jump in after almost a year since Clyde's suggestion, because in my view zen buddhism and buddhists could benefit a lot of the basic ways of pragmatic dharma.
I saw the reactions in the Kensho thread which I am neither for nor against
But, it was hard to reconcile with the words of the third patriach that came up later in another thread
Am guessing I still don't know enough about Chan (Zen).
People here seem to know a lot more than I do
Last edited by avisitor on Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Dear Members

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:47 am

avisitor wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 am
The third patriach
:namaste:
cooper

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 am

[james] wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:02 pm
at the end “live and let live” is the necessary action.
Yes, so much mischief caused by "my religion is better than yours" rather than "my religion is better for me".

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fuki
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Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:26 am

Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 am

Yes, so much mischief caused by "my religion is better than yours" rather than "my religion is better for me".
Wifes, husbands, football clubs, cars and cats, zen forums, etcetera
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:39 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:26 am
football clubs
Some are obviously just better :D

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:51 am

Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:39 am
fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:26 am
football clubs
Some are obviously just better :D
yes, in reference to skill or other particulars and if the mind of comparing should arise.

reminds me of the "best piece of meat" "koan"/zen story

but I like your better fit instead of "better" analogy, eventhough not all fits lead to liberation (thus have I heared) :lol:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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lindama
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Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Dear Members

Post by lindama » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:51 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:26 am
Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 am

Yes, so much mischief caused by "my religion is better than yours" rather than "my religion is better for me".
Wifes, husbands, football clubs, cars and cats, zen forums, etcetera
Friends, Romans and Countrymen.... in the spirit of the Third Patriarch and so-called mischief and expression... whatever your critter preferences are.... I know mine, Fuki's and Joe's.... not sure about Larry and avisitor.... may I share my critter kensho. All my life, I have had cats, Dolly, being my latest. For the last 5 years or so, I have been dog sitting on request.... and come to enjoy dogs. My 3 Havanese were the perfect beginner dogs, small and they had 10 fenced acres to run around on. They were not leash trained, but they wanted my company when running and playing outside, day or night, any hour. I spent a total of 3-4+ months with them til they moved away. I miss them terribly and will go to visit. A series of sweet dogs too big for me to walk and then Watson, a Schnauser, who I finally could walk on a leash tho he needed a bit more training. That's when I started watching dog training videos on youtube. ofc, you don't need to know any of this.... except that I have stopped the preferences. The back story is that in the third grade, I walked out of my front door for school with my Valentines in hand.... a then giant boxer knocked me down and the Valentines blew away. so began the preferences. I most likely won't have a dog in this lifetime, no space, but I go out of my way to greet them.

BTW, religious comparison is worth running from imo.

avisitor, I don't know much, Chan has it differences, but it's the same critter to me. I've been lucky enough to sit a time or two with Guo Gu... very grateful for that.

linda

well, not quite Brutus and Caesar, or is it? :113:
Last edited by lindama on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

avisitor
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Re: Dear Members

Post by avisitor » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:09 am

lindama wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:51 am
avisitor, I don't know much, Chan has it differences, but it's the same critter to me. I've been lucky enough to sit a time or two with Guo Gu... very grateful for that.

linda
I try to learn the simple stuff because it is easier to understand
Sort of like the man who was looking for something under the lamp post at night.
A person passing by asked what the man was doing.
The man said he lost his car keys near his car
The person said but it looks like your car is way over there
The man said yeah, but there is no light there
So, I am looking here where there is light ... :106:

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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:31 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:51 am
whatever your critter preferences are.... I know mine, Fuki's and Joe's.... not sure about Larry and avisitor....
I've had both cats and dogs in the past. No pet focus at the moment. Got my hands full with a daughter who worships Osho :mrgreen:

My religion is better than hers :D

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 pm

I am not seeing an improvement with the no-teacher rule. I know I'm asked to convey this by PM but i think it needs to be public. Or maybe its purely in the realm of "like" or "dislike" on my part. I can't discern it. I still see a positive value in zen1.space either way

I also want to make it clear that the "Pragmatic Dharma" that Kim Katama, Vincent Horn, Daniel Ingram, and Jeffery Brooks put forward is not a topic I'm interested in. It simply sounds like hyperventilating hyperbole to me, no matter which one of them expounds it.

The only reason why I included the article by Daniel Lopez, is that the Westernization of Buddhism - in the last 2 centuries - is an attempt to turn Buddhism into something it's not, into something that appeals to the Western mind-set instead.

In the future I'll post about the samadhis, jhanas, bhumis in Dharmawheel, because I think the community there has the teaching and intellectual resources to investigate it better, and I don't feel it's constructive use of this forum, which as I understand it is supposed to be geared towards mutual support of one another in the Dharma.

Sorry if i made a hash of things!

:555:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:54 pm

I simply feed the birds, but then I get mice. And you know what mice attract.... :cat:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

Spike
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: Dear Members

Post by Spike » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 pm
I am not seeing an improvement with the no-teacher rule. I know I'm asked to convey this by PM but i think it needs to be public. Or maybe its purely in the realm of "like" or "dislike" on my part. I can't discern it.
Honest of you to say so.
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 pm
" . . . the Westernization of Buddhism - in the last 2 centuries - is an attempt to turn Buddhism into something it's not, into something that appeals to the Western mind-set instead.
I don't see how anyone is best positioned to say, to borrow from the Zep, "what is and what should never be".

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Mason
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Mason » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:07 pm

Mainly I'm wary of this forum becoming just another "dharma" argument place, which would be really unfortunate. Maybe this time we can steer in a new, more wholesome direction? That's what I'd like to see. :110:
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:34 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 pm
I am not seeing an improvement with the no-teacher rule.
I agree, I haven’t seen an improvement; nor have I seen a deterioration. As I’ve said, Zen Space isn’t a one-person forum and the nature and quality of Zen Space is determined by the postings of the members.

Regarding samadhi and jhanas, I’m interested, interested enough that I started a topic here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=332. If you’re interested in discussing samadhi and jhanas, start a topic.

Regarding Pragmatic Dharma, if it isn’t of interest to you, simply don’t engage on the topic. Or, if you feel it’s wrong and want to express your opinion and reasons, you can start a topic or respond to a topic that’s discussing Pragmatic Dharma. (Note: This topic is about the ‘no ordained Zen teachers’, not other worthwhile topics.)


p.s:
I know I'm asked to convey this by PM but i think it needs to be public.
I don’t recall asking you or any member to convey their concerns by PM. I started this topic so members could voice their concerns publicly. I have also made it known and encouraged anyone who wishes to share a ‘private concern’ to PM me.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

Spike
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Spike » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:00 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:07 pm
Mainly I'm wary of this forum becoming just another "dharma" argument place, which would be really unfortunate. Maybe this time we can steer in a new, more wholesome direction? That's what I'd like to see. :110:
I think it is worth arguing in favor of a "big tent" inclusive approach to "dharma".

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:29 am

Note: Over the next few days I will be merging a few little used sub-forums (Zen History, Zen Tradition and Innovation, and Research Space) into Zen Buddhism. If all goes well, no topics or posts will be lost.

Please let me know if this causes any stress.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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