Dear Members

News and information about the forum.
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Larry
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Larry » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:44 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:33 pm
Thank you 10,000 times Meido and Guo Gu. :111:

For me, this is most unfortunate turn of events.

all the best
linda
:560:

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[james]
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Re: Dear Members

Post by [james] » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:32 pm

elg [v 2.0] wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:43 pm
...
PS. Looks as the new "THEZENFORUM" forum (launched by Jundo $ co.) goes nowhere, as well.
Thanks for pointing this out ... it doesn’t look too shabby to me.
Here’s a link for anyone who may be interested:

https://www.thezenforum.com/index.php

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[james]
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Re: Dear Members

Post by [james] » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:51 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:05 pm
I don't think any student in their right mind would want to be deprived of the insight and (online) embodiment of Meido or Guo Gu. Personally, I think the forum would be much better if only Meido and Guo Gu were allowed to post. Yes, it's a little (or, a lottle) embarrassing to attempt discussions about Zen when true teachers are there, watching. We must all appear quite confused and lost - even the best of us. Thankfully such teachers have a remarkable compassion and tolerance for our bullshit Zen-pretending.

I understand the motivation to do this, and I look forward to the fun. But, methinks the cost is too great.

:namaste:
How is the cost too great?

Any teacher who wanted to post and participate here could easily, simply do so anonymously and no one would have to have any preconceptions as to whether or not true teachers are here watching. We could assume that anyone posting here may perhaps be a true teacher or never be sure and interact with another as if s/he is a true teacher. Wouldn’t that be good? Why is it important to know?

For myself, I don’t really understand Clyde’s motivation, yet. What do you think it is?

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Mason
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Mason » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:45 pm

[james] wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:51 pm
How is the cost too great?
If Meido and Guo Gu stop posting here, that would be a great loss for the forum.
Any teacher who wanted to post and participate here could easily, simply do so anonymously and no one would have to have any preconceptions as to whether or not true teachers are here watching. We could assume that anyone posting here may perhaps be a true teacher or never be sure and interact with another as if s/he is a true teacher. Wouldn’t that be good? Why is it important to know?
I had the same idea. But my (admittedly questionable) intuition tells me that it's unlikely to happen. Not really sure why I feel that way.
For myself, I don’t really understand Clyde’s motivation, yet. What do you think it is?
Well, I have had similar experiences. When I lived at a Zen center, a book club formed and sometimes a teacher would participate. It really messed up the dynamic of the group. People didn't feel as safe sharing their understanding of things.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Mason
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Mason » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:50 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:35 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:05 pm
We must all appear quite confused and lost - even the best of us. Thankfully such teachers have a remarkable compassion and tolerance for our bullshit Zen-pretending.
The way I see it, there is no error in appearances other then our grasping, hence when (the discriminating) mind comes into being the various conceptions come to be, as so all dharmas are the very mind of sentient beings. It reminds me of referees they always penalize the 'second' error, which in this metaphor is not what appears but the internal narrative to whatever appears, i.e. emtional reactivity, making "thisness" and "thatness" thought about so called dharmas (phenomena) Let's not overanalyze and just see what happens, thus present thoughts/activity remaining fresh. I'd hate to see Meido and Guo Gu "go" too, however let's support Clyde, not being conditioned by the past (and the forums history) and give it a shot. Meido himself was supportive in his speech, let's take that as an example.
As I said, I look forward to the fun.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Crystal
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Crystal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:53 pm

I think its very sad that first Jundo was removed - and now Meido and Guo Gu have had to go too .

I also think it will be a wasted space if this place turns into either a chaotic free-for-all, or a website where 2 or 3 people end up clearly dominating the various forums in it, but not necessarily being of any significant help to beginners.

Anyway....sincerely wishing everyone, both past and present, all the very best...and "strong practice" as Joe would say!

~ Crystal.

May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free of suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness which is without suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.



Image

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:58 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:50 pm
As I said, I look forward to the fun.
Good stepping, Brother!
:namaste:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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[james]
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Re: Dear Members

Post by [james] » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:30 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:45 pm
If Meido and Guo Gu stop posting here, that would be a great loss for the forum.
They have already stopped posting until they post again. Guo Gu seems to have stopped posting. Caodemarte seemed to have stopped posting and now he’s back. The real loss is maybe something to do with our expectations.
I had the same idea. But my (admittedly questionable) intuition tells me that it's unlikely to happen. Not really sure why I feel that way.
My intuition tells me the same but my imagination tells me different.
Well, I have had similar experiences. When I lived at a Zen center, a book club formed and sometimes a teacher would participate. It really messed up the dynamic of the group. People didn't feel as safe sharing their understanding of things.
That’s too bad and perhaps it points to Clyde’s intent. But let’s be clear ... “messed up” is only another way of saying “changed”. Isn't it our business, as students of zen, to be fluid with change?
Last edited by [james] on Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, I have had similar experiences. When I lived at a Zen center, a book club formed and sometimes a teacher would participate. It really messed up the dynamic of the group. People didn't feel as safe sharing their understanding of things.
Interesting, do you know in that setting the "specific" causes and condtions?

I mean how was the dynamic disrupted, was the teacher too ego-driven (to teach), or to eager to "confront delusion" was it in speech or just his presence, or was it more the 'minds of the participants' I mean a teacher appearing made them self-conscious etc etc

I've noticed this myself a few times in groups, even the zazen sessions where often more productive without a teacher present, funny eh?
Sometimes it's vice versa btw, a group being totally 'lost' without a teacher present.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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clyde
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Re: Dear Members

Post by clyde » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:06 am

I appreciate the concerns expressed here and take them to heart.

No one is deprived of contact with Meido, Guo Gu, or any Zen teacher; you need only make an effort to contact them. I’ve done it with other Zen teachers and have received a response in every instance. And there are other forums and social media where Zen teachers participate (e.g. - Meido on DharmaWheel and Jundo at his forum, Treeleaf).

Regarding my motivations, I gave two reasons, The first reason is about forum dynamics; i.e., having teachers participate affects the dynamic of the forum. I get the value of having teachers participate and their expertise, but there is also value in having a Dharma friends forum. And the second reason is personal; i.e., I don’t want to moderate teachers and if there are teachers, there will be moderation of teachers.

As for whether Zen Space is “nonzense” or “wasted space”, that really is determined by the members. If you want Zen Space to be beneficial and meaningful, then post in a way that supports that intention.

And as I seem to be repeating myself, I’ll stop unless there is some new concern that I haven’t addressed.

clyde


p.s: You are always welcome to PM me with any concern or question.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:18 am

clyde wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:06 am
And as I seem to be repeating myself, I’ll stop unless there is some new concern that I haven’t addressed.
It comes with the territory/job, also what anyone is saying isn't always what others are hearing (especially me since I'm not an expert in interpretation upon perception) so a little hint in making this an all-fresh-friend dharma group, it's not always conducive to say "I'll stop, I seem to be repeating myself" etc
:hatsoff:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Kaya

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kaya » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:23 am

clyde wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:06 am
I appreciate the concerns expressed here and take them to heart.

Regarding my motivations, . . . I don’t want to moderate teachers and if there are teachers, there will be moderation of teachers.
I understand this as humility

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Fruitzilla » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:29 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, I have had similar experiences. When I lived at a Zen center, a book club formed and sometimes a teacher would participate. It really messed up the dynamic of the group. People didn't feel as safe sharing their understanding of things.
Interesting, do you know in that setting the "specific" causes and condtions?

I mean how was the dynamic disrupted, was the teacher too ego-driven (to teach), or to eager to "confront delusion" was it in speech or just his presence, or was it more the 'minds of the participants' I mean a teacher appearing made them self-conscious etc etc

I've noticed this myself a few times in groups, even the zazen sessions where often more productive without a teacher present, funny eh?
Sometimes it's vice versa btw, a group being totally 'lost' without a teacher present.
It's really interesting how a lot of people just clam up when there's any sort of perceived authority present. I've been at many a meeting where people who were very outspoken among equals just sat there and couldn't be made to speak up no matter what.

Personally, I'm sorry to see Guo and Meido go, they've made quite wonderful contributions to the forum. And their presence can be good practice for the beforementioned authority hangups of people to boot.

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fuki
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Re: Dear Members

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:36 am

Fruitzilla wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:29 am
It's really interesting how a lot of people just clam up when there's any sort of perceived authority present. I've been at many a meeting where people who were very outspoken among equals just sat there and couldn't be made to speak up no matter what.
Funny, I've actually run in "problems" (according to them) with teachers because I was too "present"
why should I act differently with or without a teacher present? Last time in Amsterdam I spoke up when the teacher made an error in 'expounding' the diamond sutra, damn he was pissed and told me to not interrupt him in public afterwards....pfff "fuck" that on your ego-pedestal, I'm not there for your authority or money making business disguised as dharma ;)

ps exception ofcourse (I hope) most of them are great, though imperfect as all of us, some just like to hide their flaws.
So much for "we're in this together" :103:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Kaya

Re: Dear Members

Post by Kaya » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:38 am

No blame for them to leave. Comments or threads by them were underrecognized or underappreciated, imo. Both have big in-person responsibilities that trump (sorry!) participation in this venue.

Best to both of them. I am 70, just retired from work nine days ago, and will make it a point to meet both of them.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Dear Members

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:58 am

The teachers should have been more active.

That was so at Zen Forum Int.

I don't know if they were getting payment by so.

But for me they should be payed(money).

thanks
all
for
their
efforts..
sorry for,
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Dear Members

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:21 am

And this forum stuff..should be established by rich lay sympathizers or institutional companies or at least by zen communities or monastries as well.
There are many big rich companies in japan.
what are they doing?
cooper

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lobster
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Re: Dear Members

Post by lobster » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:32 am

I iz member? :110:

We lost our best students/good beginners aka Teachers (also available in spirit form). Ah well :112:

:107:

Hopefully we can still digest the words of the departed, immoderate and cyber-zeniths :557:

Long live impermanence. :bow2:

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Dear Members

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:19 am

Enver M. wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:58 am
The teachers should have been more active.

That was so at Zen Forum Int.

I don't know if they were getting payment by so.

But for me they should be payed(money).

thanks
all
for
their
efforts..
sorry for,

And this forum stuff..should be established by rich lay sympathizers or institutional companies or at least by zen communities or monastries as well.There are many big rich companies in japan.
If I were Guo Gu, Meido or Jundo,

Make a project.Meet and talk with all the monastries.Find available teachers.Connect with big companies CEO's.By agreeable payment and conditions prepare a huge online web site with online zen forum international.Which include tens of dozens zen masters and participants.

imaginary?
cooper

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Dear Members

Post by Fruitzilla » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:34 am

Shall we keep this one on topic?

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