Zen or nonzense

News and information about the forum.
User avatar
clyde
Site Admin
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Zen or nonzense

Post by clyde » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:42 pm

Dear members;

Our masthead says,
Zen Space
A Zen Buddhist discussion forum. Zen Space is a free community service run by volunteers to provide an online place to discuss Zen Buddhism and to share our collective knowledge and experience.
That’s what why I joined; that’s why I volunteered.

I get the value of posting music videos, photos, and the Lounge. I’ve posted a few music videos, and a couple of photos, and posted occasionally in the Lounge. I think they’re beneficial . . . when used to create personal connections. But I believe they have been abused by over-use and/or cliquish dialogues.

Zen Space should not be a music video site, a photo gallery, or merely a place where “Anything at all goes here.” In Buddhist terms, it’s idle chatter.

As it is, the Lounge represents over 50% of all posts and some members spend most (50-70%!) of their time and posts in the Lounge. And this is expressly why some long-time Zen students no longer participate here.

Personally, I’d rather be a member of a small forum that discusses the Zen Way than be involved in a large group that discusses nonzense.

Those are my thoughts.
What are your thoughts on this?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:59 pm

Clyde,

Points well taken!

Some know, some can remember, and some might not know, that Zen Buddhism, as practiced in a traditional context with teacher and sangha, often or usually involves arts (some say THE arts). And sometimes something of Art is most suited or most eloquent or accessible to express something important to us from within our Dharma practice, or to begin or serve as an element within a discussion or other collaboration about it.

I remember how my late friend John (Daido) Loori undertook his koan practice with Maezumi Roshi, having Maezumi allow John to present his responses to each koan in the form of a photograph that John had taken for the purpose, in the midst of devoted practice. This, as far as we know, may be an unusual case!, but it shows something of the spirit of flexibility and inclusiveness exercised by Zen Buddhist teachers and some students.

I myself shall reduce the amount of "Lounge" material that I post, and will try harder always to present good Dharmic reasons for posting particular items (I don't always do that, but sometimes I do, already; anyway, I usually mention SOME motivation for posting particular items of art).

We can all do better! (oops, that's something usually reserved for Teachers to say). ;)

With thanks for this thread,

Yours in the Dharma,

--Joe

User avatar
loves' the unjust
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:13 pm

Well, speaking about zen requires wisdom and knowledge.both are absent at me.

just some thoughts to put(serve) on the table...
cooper

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:28 pm

Clyde,

Eventhough should one have the time and 'personal connection' to view and be active in the lounge threads, which are at times more zen then nonzense (if one has the ears to hear, though I acknowledge it involves some 'personal connection' and thus time and willingness to participate, there are some skilfull means there) let's say hypothetically that all the lounge posts are nonzense, do you think it distracts from zen or the purpose of the forum? I mean they don't appear into the latest/active posts section on the main page.
In Buddhist terms, it’s idle chatter
I don't agree "at all", much of it "is" or may seem so from your or anyone's points of view, but magic happens in the "idle chatter" parts, for me the lounge is where the true magic/dharma happens at times, and I know it is so for a few others. Pray, I understand your points, but you can't force a flower to bloom, nor can you underestimate the function of weed (what people perceive as weed) But thanks for your points and hopeful inspiration to other members and the complete non-discriminitve flourishment of the whole forum, both in "parts" and "universal".
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:16 pm

Clyde, et al.,

I think a solution to the challenge of sharpening the focus of this Space is to remove areas that don't starkly serve the mission-statement.

How they crept in here, I dunno. Maybe in too-direct emulation of the old ZFI, with its diverse and multifarious niches.

Should this be done, and those areas be expunged, I think that this will ensure that if someone truly wants to post something "artful" in support of the Dharma, that they will do it truly, within the context of the Dharma-focused areas of the board (which "should" be all the board, IMO). That could come to be most complimentary, favorable, salutory, and ultimately savory for all.

I'm for completely deleting "Lounge", though it's been a gas.

This may also serve to bring back some of the "Exit-eers", and encourage them to rank themselves on the "Remain" side of the aisle. I think a sharpening of focus would serve all who are here, and all who may come.

Fond hopes!

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:20 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:16 pm
I'm for completely deleting "Lounge", though it's been a gas.

This may also serve to bring back some of the "Exit-eers", and encourage them to rank themselves on the "Remain" side of the aisle. I think a sharpening of focus would serve all who are here, and all who may come.
That's a bit too (forceful) directionally steering people into a direction or mode of mental space Joe (yes mental, it's the internet), and also not in accordance with';
Clyde wrote:The forum is not a substitute for a Zen teacher and the student-teacher relationship. At best it’s a poor substitute for a sangha. But it’s an OK substitute for Dharma friends. It’s best as an addition to our practice.
At least over here from my corner of imagination, it's not a Sangha, and in our local sangha I have no use for a lounge, on the interweb zen-space I do, it's where friends have a 'chat' speak of love and fart in any general direction :111:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:25 pm

ps it's just too teacher-y and focus driven towards "zen", nothing wrong with idle chatter and 'relaxing' in the lounge (again for me and no problem in "my non-dwelling world")
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:28 pm

hiya, Marcel,
fuki wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:20 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:16 pm
I'm for completely deleting "Lounge", though it's been a gas.

This may also serve to bring back some of the "Exit-eers", and encourage them to rank themselves on the "Remain" side of the aisle. I think a sharpening of focus would serve all who are here, and all who may come.
That's a bit to (forceful) directionally steering people into a direction or mode of mental space Joe (yes mental, it's the internet), and also not in accordance with';
Do you mean there's something wrong with "force", if it's for a good Cause, and a manifestly good Effect?

(It's just the Bodhisattva-Way, I'd say. And perhaps a wise assurance of quality-control).

I had to "force" another Goat-Head seed thorn out of my foot today; granted, still aching, but healing follows and just makes one stronger. Would have been better off if the thorn was never in the foot in the first place... .

--Joe

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 am

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by KeithA » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:31 pm

My personal opinion is to leave the lounge to it's own devices, as long as it's within the TOS. It doesn't show up in the public area, and to my mind, stifling even that conversation is a step too far.

We had a pretty good crowd at practice last evening (for us). After practice, people hung out for a little bit. None of them talked about Zen. The lounge serves that function, imho.

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:28 pm
hiya, Marcel,

Do you mean there's something wrong with "force", if it's for a good Cause, and a manifestly good Effect?

(It's just the Bodhisattva-Way, I'd say. And perhaps a wise assurance of quality-control).
Cause and effect, Bodhisattva way, a good cause? ouch! Be careful what you wish for! ;)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:37 pm

KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:31 pm

We had a pretty good crowd at practice last evening (for us). After practice, people hung out for a little bit. None of them talked about Zen. The lounge serves that function, imho.
Similary, a few days ago 40 people stood still for 3 hours on a marketplace in service of sentient beings (Practise), afterwards we had some "idle chat" and enjoyed diner together in a vegan restaurant.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 am

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by KeithA » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:39 pm

As it is, the Lounge represents over 50% of all posts and some members spend most (50-70%!) of their time and posts in the Lounge. And this is expressly why some long-time Zen students no longer participate here.
Perhaps a sticky is needed to inform folks that they if they find a topic that doesn't interest them, they can exercise their free will and just not click on it. :hatsoff:

Even as a moderator, I would just ignore it unless someone reports a post.

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:41 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 pm
Be careful what you wish for! ;)
Every day, every day. --Joe

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:46 pm

KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:39 pm
As it is, the Lounge represents over 50% of all posts and some members spend most (50-70%!) of their time and posts in the Lounge. And this is expressly why some long-time Zen students no longer participate here.
Perhaps a sticky is needed to inform folks that they if they find a topic that doesn't interest them, they can exercise their free will and just not click on it. :hatsoff:

Even as a moderator, I would just ignore it unless someone reports a post.

_/|\_
Keith
That most posts are in the lounge says nothing about the lounge acticity or the inactivity of the "zen part" lol
it indicates that without the lounge this forum would have been dead a long time ago.
People who indicate that the lounge is what keeps them away from posting about zen is nonsense, they just don't have anything themselves to post regarding zen and use the lounge people or "the few who dominate" as an excuse for their own discriminative nonsense.
I've seen this on e-sangha, zfi, round and round, always pointing outside of themselves for the lack of "zen" activity, it's pure BS (though in their own internal narrative they're probably right about it!) If you want it to be about zen start a topic, talk about zen, its inactivity has nothing to do with other active parts, "damn" zenspace should be grateful for the "lounge folks" keeping this space relatively active. :P
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:49 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:41 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 pm
Be careful what you wish for! ;)
Every day, every day. --Joe
:hatsoff: :111:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:01 pm

If we can't live without "Lounge", then what hope is there for our facing the wall for nine years? (Enver?) :lol:

(now, I didn't say "Rest Room". That's an actual almost-necessity. Though, I've built an adequate composting-toilet outside (can see the book HUMANURE HANDBOOK, e.g., although this is my own design based on wood I happened to have hanging about).

--Joe

came_I_saw_I_cut_it.jpg
came_I_saw_I_cut_it.jpg (27.76 KiB) Viewed 790 times
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 pm

Stuff like this "pisses me off" not internally but as a reaction to people keeping other people in the dark, aka politricks, (and just ignorance, not the "zen ignorance of 'knowing' but the ignorance of not-knowing aka lack of social skills) not much different then what you see on the news and our manipulative societies, me being pissed off and idle chatter is also "bodhisattva action", shakyamuni himself can strike me down if he doesn't agree. Discriminative manipulative BS. :hatsoff:

UGH this zen vs lounge group distinction. there's always some fabrication people imagine to be the problem, other then their own non-functional discrimination being the very problem! round and round, seen this nonsense since 2006 since I was on the internet, always the same manipulative politics, let people be, for fucks sake.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
clyde
Site Admin
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by clyde » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:00 am

Off topic posts deleted.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

User avatar
clyde
Site Admin
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by clyde » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:07 am

Fuki; It’s not that I believe that all posts in the Lounge are “idle chatter”, as I said, some are “beneficial . . . when used to create personal connections”; but I don’t believe that’s true for all posts. And if they’re truly about the Zen Way, then they should be posted in the Zen forums.

I agree that one can’t force a flower to bloom, but you can create and support favorable conditions, and eliminate unfavorable conditions. If we want Zen to flower, we need to tend the garden :)

As Keith noted,
KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:31 pm
After practice, people hung out for a little bit. None of them talked about Zen. The lounge serves that function, imho.
I agree. But it’s the ratio of Zen practice to chatter that is the issue. If the Lounge is what keeps Zen Space alive, then it isn’t a “Zen Space”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Zen or nonzense

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:28 am

hi, All,
clyde wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:07 am
If the Lounge is what keeps Zen Space alive, then it isn’t a “Zen Space”.
I agree. It's a "Tea House of the August Moon", instead. :|

(not a bad movie of that title, as I remember. Saw it on TV when I was about 13, though the movie was older than that. Our great actor Glenn Ford played a really nice part, as I recall. A familiar tea house is what the locals wanted, I remember, not various "reforms").

--Joe

Post Reply