Therapeutic Complements to Zen

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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:20 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:10 pm
Um... hindrances, vexations, etc have their momentum, as much as their are empty blah blah blah... So I am not getting what you are trying to get at, fuki?
That any notion of "eliminating" etc might reify/reveal the mind?
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Dan74
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 pm

Ah.

I don't think I said 'eliminating' anything though.

Some habits go and some remain. But you know what, while the mirror doesn't exist and there is no place for dust to alight, it's damn good to take a clean cloth to it and keep it shiny.

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Larry
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:12 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind...
Without raking over old dirt, or being specific, some of the high profile history of contemporary Western Zen would suggest it's maybe not that hard to believe.

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Larry
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:13 am

fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:03 pm
What is neither eradicated or remaining?
Is your interest in Spiritual Bypassing having a day off? :106:

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Dan74
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:52 am

Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:12 am
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind...
Without raking over old dirt, or being specific, some of the high profile history of contemporary Western Zen would suggest it's maybe not that hard to believe.
Maybe... But 'high profile' doesn't necessarily equate with 'thorough and sustained practice', does it?

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Larry
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:09 am

Well, more specifically, randy teachers who've been through a thorough sustained practice & still missed half the cobwebs.High profile equates to well known, experienced teachers with, theoretically, a thorough sustained practice.
I'm starting to sound like bodhi :fencing: :lol:

And how the hell are we having this conversation at 6 o'clock in the morning? :lol:

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:41 am

I am skeptical of the well-known. In the best case scenario, they still have too little time for individual students. Having read a little about late Eido S. while I am not going to fault his teachers, it didnt seem to me that it was a thorough and sustained practice or the kind of wholehearted commitment that is necesaary. But now I should really shut rhe hell up.

About the hour: why not? Read the morning paper or reply on ZS? On the train to Bern now - gotta do my homework!!

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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:09 am

Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:13 am
fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:03 pm
What is neither eradicated or remaining?
Is your interest in Spiritual Bypassing having a day off? :106:
:lol:

Sorry Larry, was a lack of discipline from my part. :mrgreen:
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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:15 am

Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:12 am
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind...
Without raking over old dirt, or being specific, some of the high profile history of contemporary Western Zen would suggest it's maybe not that hard to believe.
Enlightement is a myth ;)

https://wp.me/p2KDb7-1W
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KeithA
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by KeithA » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:04 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:15 am
Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:12 am
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind...
Without raking over old dirt, or being specific, some of the high profile history of contemporary Western Zen would suggest it's maybe not that hard to believe.
Enlightement is a myth ;)

https://wp.me/p2KDb7-1W
Oh no you didn't!!

:jump:

BTW, interesting article from Bob, but in the end, it's all just supposition and guessing, isn't it?
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:23 am

KeithA wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:04 am
fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:15 am
Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:12 am
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind...
Without raking over old dirt, or being specific, some of the high profile history of contemporary Western Zen would suggest it's maybe not that hard to believe.
Enlightement is a myth ;)

https://wp.me/p2KDb7-1W
Oh no you didn't!!

:jump:

BTW, interesting article from Bob, but in the end, it's all just supposition and guessing, isn't it?
"don't know"
:111:

I’ve been a monk for 65 years, and what I have found is that there is no religion, no philosophy, no ideology higher than brotherhood and sisterhood. Not even buddhism.
~Thich Nhat Hanh

ps Keith you might enjoy this article too about "sir bob"
http://www.wisdompubs.org/blog/201401/s ... ry-1971-73
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Anders
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:30 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:03 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
Through practice it's been a great blessing to see some old habits just fall by the wayside, and yet others remain. Is it because my practice isn't good enough? Very very possible. It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind... So again... I do not know.
But mind does not exist in itself, so how is it revealed?
28764397_307784016416146_8670637388269092864_n.jpg
What is neither eradicated or remaining?
:106:
I take your point, but I am also left with the feeling that this is insufficient for anyone with vows to uphold. At least I feel that it's not OK to go live out your personal shit on others just because it's all empty.

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:11 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:30 pm
fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:03 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
Through practice it's been a great blessing to see some old habits just fall by the wayside, and yet others remain. Is it because my practice isn't good enough? Very very possible. It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind... So again... I do not know.
But mind does not exist in itself, so how is it revealed?
28764397_307784016416146_8670637388269092864_n.jpg
What is neither eradicated or remaining?
:106:
I take your point, but I am also left with the feeling that this is insufficient for anyone with vows to uphold. At least I feel that it's not OK to go live out your personal shit on others just because it's all empty.
Ofcourse not, I was just a bit "surprised" that Dan wrote (in a retoric sense so I should have kept silent anyway, again bad discipline from me)
that 'practising harder' is about some kind of improvement or the "falling away" of habits, while habits fall away by themselves without the idea of removing them, as said before "the fighting is it" also his comment about "my practise" indicates some identification to mind
[SPOILER]
(yes I know please dont see it in the version of "you and me" as if I attained something like happens on other forums and I get challenged for sounding "too wise" I can go back to making dick jokes too)
while we "know" that past/present/future mind cannot be grasped.
Mind is without alienation;
No need to terminate lust.
Nature being empty, lust will
Depart by itself.
Allow the mind to float and sink.

Neither clear nor clouded,
Neither shallow nor deep.
Originally it was not ancient;
At present it is not modern.

Now it is non-abiding;
Now it is original mind.
Originally it did not exist;
"Origin" is the present moment.

Bodhi has always existed;
No need to preserve it.
Vexation has never existed,
No need to eliminate it.

Natural wisdom is self-illuminating;
All dharmas return to thusness.
There is no returning, no receiving;
Stop contemplating, forget keeping.
Ofcourse we shouldn't throw our personal shit because it's "empty" if the service of emptiness was understood there would be no shit to bother others with, we would see our own transient fantasies for what they are (insubstantial breezes) and there would be neither shit or flowers to send others out in the name of our own self-importance. I should shut up more instead of trying to let people "see" something I imagine can be helpful. I just got back from a friend who's suffering from deep depression, there's nothing "wise" I need to say, just being there is enough. I love coming here, Larry just "put me in my place" and he was right to do so. It's good "therapy" for me :D So back to penis jokes it is!
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:11 pm
I just got back from a friend who's suffering from deep depression, there's nothing "wise" I need to say, just being there is enough.
Exactly my feeling with my friend in hospital this afternoon.

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:55 pm

Larry wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:11 pm
I just got back from a friend who's suffering from deep depression, there's nothing "wise" I need to say, just being there is enough.
Exactly my feeling with my friend in hospital this afternoon.
Last time I lay in the hospital a man next to me had about 10 visitors everyday, but only 2 ppl were permanent visitors. Each day new ppl came who haven't seen each other for years. So it was a mad chickenhouse where everyone was only talking about themselves in the 3 times as if it was a thanksgiving diner and the man who was in the hospital was completely forgotten. He was just being used for their own self-importance. The visits completely drained his energy, some of the patients in the room seemed more like family to the man then his actual blood bound family.
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/m ... f=magazine

This is a fascinating read to me. About the psychotherapeutic process of a Zen master and how the very nature of the experience of no self played right into the hand of his pathological behaviours.

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:19 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/m ... f=magazine

This is a fascinating read to me. About the psychotherapeutic process of a Zen master and how the very nature of the experience of no self played right into the hand of his pathological behaviours.
Thanks, Rumi comes to mind.
rumi 14.jpg
rumi 14.jpg (58.61 KiB) Viewed 147 times
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:21 pm

I can recognise a lot of myself in it. Since I started therapy it has become apparent to me how much I've trivialised large parts of the experience of my personal narrative, as a psychological pattern. And how my practise up to that point had failed to really *bring out* some of the shadowed parts of the mind.

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Fuki,

re your comments above: Dan never said he was free of grasping, attachments, etc.

I try to speak from experience, and my experience is usually defiled and tainted ignorance and delusions, so are my words. Yes, I could filter the words and try to speak like an enlightened master, but that would be lying.

_/|\_

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/m ... f=magazine

This is a fascinating read to me. About the psychotherapeutic process of a Zen master and how the very nature of the experience of no self played right into the hand of his pathological behaviours.
Yes, it is to me too.

I remember it from some years ago. Regardless of our life journeys, our early years shape us in profound ways. At some stage, and somehow, we need to face that. Otherwise chances are, these powerful experiences and the narratives they feed into, will coopt the practice to their ends.

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