Therapeutic Complements to Zen

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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:55 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Have you tried to survive in challenging circumstances, with no social security, no web of friends, family and acquaintances, familiar places, etc? With the props gone, with the comforts gone, with daily hard work and humiliation, does your liberation from grasping hold up?

_/|\_
I once slept on the street for a few months and worked hard every day to provide for food and shelter due to causes and conditions, I find the "comforting" life, i.e. friend/family, the familiar and the known much more challenging since ppl who know you have a preconceived idea about who "fuki" is. so I enjoyed never sticking in one place for a day and not meeting the same ppl with preconceived notions about "me"

No problem these days but it was a struggle back then, these days its all the same to me, familiar or unfamiliar but its still nice to meet "strangers" instead of the known friends/family who locked me up in a mental picture ;)

How come you ask?

ps I also enjoy meeting "muslims" more often then "buddhist" overall, yet its rare to meet a true fool who cannot be pinned down as this or that, "deluded" and "enlightened" included
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Dan74
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:09 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Have you tried to survive in challenging circumstances, with no social security, no web of friends, family and acquaintances, familiar places, etc? With the props gone, with the comforts gone, with daily hard work and humiliation, does your liberation from grasping hold up?

_/|\_
I once slept on the street for a few months and worked hard every day to provide for food and shelter due to causes and conditions, I find the "comforting" life, i.e. friend/family, the familiar and the known much more challenging since ppl who know you have a preconceived idea about who "fuki" is. so I enjoyed never sticking in one place for a day and not meeting the same ppl with preconceived notions about "me"

No problem these days but it was a struggle back then, these days its all the same to me, familiar or unfamiliar but its still nice to meet "strangers" instead of the known friends/family who locked me up in a mental picture ;)

How come you ask?

ps I also enjoy meeting "muslims" more often then "buddhist" overall, yet its rare to meet a true fool who cannot be pinned down as this or that, "deluded" and "enlightened" included
I asked because your comments struck me as somewhat "theoretical". So I wondered what happens in praxis to the non-grasping. I sometimes wonder, like when you said how hard it is for your to finish a book that evokes a non-grasping non-abiding state.. in a way I can relate... and also wonder whether it is truly non-abiding or a spacing-out of sorts.. I don't know, so I generally hold my tongue (hence deleted this part of my message, but you were too quick!)

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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:20 pm

The book comment is more "absorptive" but then again I read 10 pages today because the encounter words weren't so absorptive. If I remain in that "concentration" samadhi happens, yet its not a part of daily practise. Regarding non-grasping, ofcourse any thought about non-grasping is grasping, just as the awareness that one is not thinking is in itself a thought, most sentient beings "minds" allegedly have 64 per second, so much for "non-thinking" :lol:

As you know "non-grasping" isnt a goal, practisioners who have goals or measure are in trouble, Jundo's taxi meter comes to mind, which by default is always zero since you cant grasp or count non-grasping. nor is non-grasping something one can "do" it isnt an activity of mind.

I have lots of grasping, not so much "internally" or self-referentialy, those moments are always related to past attachments ofcourse, and its roots run deep and are subtle, most grasping is due to other people. For instance I'm watching leverkusen-bayern on ard now with a bayern fan, so I grasp for/with him, what fun! Difference being I dont dwell on it so theres no attachment, so the current grasping will not bring about future self-referential grasping since win and loss is a fantasy the conditioned mind adds to perception, so even grasping can be functional, it doesnt always mean it produces "future "karma" i.e. bondage ;)

For him its different since his grasping is related to aversion and attraction, win and loss etc when the game is over I forget about it, other ppl might have vexations about a yellow card or whatever 2 minutes ago or are still happy or sad regarding the game a week from now.

Sorry for being quick amigo, but grasping no problem as in a function of mind responding to causes and conditions, afterwards why dwell on it? No past game, no future game (dwellings)
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 am

Larry wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:19 am
Does the addressing of shadow, addictions, etc. increasingly use Western psychological & psychotherapeutic techniques? Or only the traditional practices?
Huh?

--Joe

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lindama » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:24 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Have you tried to survive in challenging circumstances, with no social security, no web of friends, family and acquaintances, familiar places, etc? With the props gone, with the comforts gone, with daily hard work and humiliation, does your liberation from grasping hold up?

_/|\_
I once slept on the street for a few months and worked hard every day to provide for food and shelter due to causes and conditions, I find the "comforting" life, i.e. friend/family, the familiar and the known much more challenging since ppl who know you have a preconceived idea about who "fuki" is. so I enjoyed never sticking in one place for a day and not meeting the same ppl with preconceived notions about "me"

No problem these days but it was a struggle back then, these days its all the same to me, familiar or unfamiliar but its still nice to meet "strangers" instead of the known friends/family who locked me up in a mental picture ;)

How come you ask?

ps I also enjoy meeting "muslims" more often then "buddhist" overall, yet its rare to meet a true fool who cannot be pinned down as this or that, "deluded" and "enlightened" included
whaaaat? I once, in my 50's, lived in my car for several weeks with my two cats.... I had been on a chaotic quest for survival in ID, UT and back to CA.... I worked in a factory after being a corp doll... the best days of my life. I loved sitting on the grass for lunch at the factory... I've always liked getting off the grid to meet other folks just living. no pretenses there. I was already at work at the factory in UT at 6am when my co-worker told me that Princess Diana had been murdered.... then there was my boss Connie who came around to cheer us up with her cowboy poetry... and her red cowboy boots. Imagine, this lil girl who had never lived before.... make no mistake, this did not roll off my back like a duck's water.... kicking and screaming on the path to transformation... have to love it

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Larry
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:22 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 am
Larry wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:19 am
Does the addressing of shadow, addictions, etc. increasingly use Western psychological & psychotherapeutic techniques? Or only the traditional practices?
Huh?

--Joe
Huh?

:hatsoff:

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:57 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:24 am
I was already at work at the factory in UT at 6am when my co-worker told me that Princess Diana had been murdered....
Hmm, I thought it was a catastrophic high-speed auto accident.

--Joe

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Larry
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue May 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Has anyone done any work with Eugene Gendlin's Focusing process or Kam Yuen's Yuen Method? :117:

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by boda » Tue May 22, 2018 7:27 pm

Do you know what that felt something is? GOD

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Larry
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue May 22, 2018 10:18 pm

Could be. Depends on the set up or question posed & the images or words that personally resonate. I use it more from the psychotherapeutic angle. Not so much the Biospirituality. Have you done some stuff with it or just flicked through Wiki to tease? :D

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by boda » Tue May 22, 2018 11:06 pm

Larry wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:18 pm
just flicked through Wiki to tease? :D
An apt description. :106: It did sound promising though, at a glance.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Great Sage EofH » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:56 am

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Have you tried to survive in challenging circumstances, with no social security, no web of friends, family and acquaintances, familiar places, etc? With the props gone, with the comforts gone, with daily hard work and humiliation, does your liberation from grasping hold up?

_/|\_
What's there to be attached to, when everything is stripped away? In times like these (what Dan described) its easier for me, rather than the times when I'm emcumbered by, wrapped up in, and carried away with the world. Its the worldly affairs that are a pain in my ass, which is why i equate "practice" with doing the basic tasks that "karma" requires of me, pure and simple. The most Zen place I know of becomes the hardware store...
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Anders
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:32 am

I think if family and friends are summed up as a "worldly pain in the ass", we're probably at the point where Buddhist teachings have been subverted into the service of one's psychological hangups in regards to social relations.

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:12 am

Anders wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:32 am
I think if family and friends are summed up as a "worldly pain in the ass", we're probably at the point where Buddhist teachings have been subverted into the service of one's psychological hangups in regards to social relations.
Anders, if I were to meet you, I'd give you the choice, would you rather have good social relations with me, or would you rather us be honest with each other? Humans are a pain in the ass and I can prove it. All they are is over-glorified great apes who think they can communicate, use tools, and make things. In the end, they are no different than all the other apes. They wage wars, and steal bananas from each other. Even in Zen, we don't simply "give our bananas away" Human nature, shuman schmachure!

:114:
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:14 am

Larry wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 2:57 pm
Has anyone done any work with Eugene Gendlin's Focusing process or Kam Yuen's Yuen Method? :117:
what
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:28 am

Also, humans don't purr
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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:50 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:12 am
Anders, if I were to meet you, I'd give you the choice, would you rather have good social relations with me, or would you rather us be honest with each other? Humans are a pain in the ass and I can prove it.
Good point (about the honesty) I'm familiar with the outwardly projected feeling "hell is other people" yet thinking ourselfs to be a person who sees a world outside is based on mistaken identity but that doesn't mean life can't be hard. I remember the feeling Eric, looking back (or if arising in the future) for me the feeling was always due to overstimulation, i.e. not enough rest and being overstimulated by responsibilities/events (especially nagging humans) relating to what you shared about the tough times you're experience in/with your family/world, the feeling/ideation is a logical consequence and understandable. It's wonderful and healing to come home to a pet.

ps lovely :cat: what's her name?
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:56 am

Anders wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:32 am
I think if family and friends are summed up as a "worldly pain in the ass", we're probably at the point where Buddhist teachings have been subverted into the service of one's psychological hangups in regards to social relations.
But the Buddh(a)ist teachings do not talk to the person or the mind, whatever we make/think of the teachings is a fantasy a psychological "hangup" to begin with.

you make...you get 🙃

The transformational powers by the "teachings" are manifested and expressed by the heart-mind, mind though cannot be used to get something from mind. It's interesting how the mind thinks it understands the teaching, that is beyond the mind. The teachings/practise are a consequence not means. Ofcourse there are man made (false) "teachings" in Buddhism, but I trust we can differentiate between true medicine and manipulative means.
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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:42 pm

Fuki: I'ts not my cat, but I'm cat sitting for it, for a couple of weeks. Female long hair, tortoise fur (partially shaved by cruel humans). They give names to their plants but "cat" is simply referred to as "cat"

It's affectionate for the photo because I gave it left-over salmon from my wife's lunch, although mostly it only licked off the juices and fat and wanted more of that.

Our family usually has a calico or tortoise hair cat, when we have one. Mostly I feel the best thing I can do is feed the wild birds here.

We used to go out at night and watch the bats, but they moved away from the area. As it turns out they all lived in a bat-house on my neighbors out-building (shed), which is currently under construction. We are contemplating building one for our garage, but not sure if it will work as its much lower to the ground than the neighbor's is.

:cat:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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fuki
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Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:37 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:42 pm
Fuki: I'ts not my cat, but I'm cat sitting for it, for a couple of weeks. Female long hair, tortoise fur (partially shaved by cruel humans). They give names to their plants but "cat" is simply referred to as "cat"

It's affectionate for the photo because I gave it left-over salmon from my wife's lunch, although mostly it only licked off the juices and fat and wanted more of that.

Our family usually has a calico or tortoise hair cat, when we have one. Mostly I feel the best thing I can do is feed the wild birds here.

We used to go out at night and watch the bats, but they moved away from the area. As it turns out they all lived in a bat-house on my neighbors out-building (shed), which is currently under construction. We are contemplating building one for our garage, but not sure if it will work as its much lower to the ground than the neighbor's is.

:cat:
Thanks Eric, really enjoyed that.
I'd like to comment extensively on this since it's about animals (and plants) but I promised the forum something.
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