Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Moderator: Spiritual Do-gooder

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:19 am

Meido wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:43 pm
Actually, in the Rinzai model of practice, it is after inka that one enters the truly difficult stage. It requires tremendous effort and continued exhaustive training over many years. But if someone fails to do this - perhaps by getting caught up in a role or other concerns, or by not addressing one's own shadow sides, addictions, etc. - it is certainly possible to fail in one's personal training.
Does the addressing of shadow, addictions, etc. increasingly use Western psychological & psychotherapeutic techniques? Or only the traditional practices?

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:56 am

Larry wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:19 am

Does the addressing of shadow, addictions, etc. increasingly use Western psychological & psychotherapeutic techniques? Or only the traditional practices?
Good question Larry I'm curious about this too.
In my limited experience I do see a lot of students suffering from existential problems, many are not very "stable" and have deep unresolved emotional churning conflicts, often Buddhism is used as spiritual bypassing.
And teachers who aren't that "kosher" are given a pass due to the attachment ppl have which come from those same emotional churning conflicts, plus its very easy to manipulate those students.

A teacher on zfi always said "zen is no (substitute for) psychology" At one point I get that but at the same time you also cant deny when students come this needs to be adressed and not surpressed just carrying on with "zen".
It seems a teachers these days needs to be a bit of both, or either refuse those "instable" ppl and send them to a good psychologist.

I was always reminded by other non-buddhist traditions that even "seeing nature" does not mean one's karma is resolved, one still needs to uproot the vasanas. So you can see why even "enlightened/awakened" teachers can still cause a lot of harm for themselves and others, whether its in alcoholism, sexual abuse etc.
I actually discuss this with every teacher I meet before commiting, it's important to me how they see it and how they deal with students with emotional conflicts etc
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Meido » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:37 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:19 am
Does the addressing of shadow, addictions, etc. increasingly use Western psychological & psychotherapeutic techniques? Or only the traditional practices?
I can't say definitively what other folks do. But certainly, I think many Zen people avail themselves of other tools as they feel useful. Along with psychological/psychotherapeutic techniques I would also mention certain body-based treatments, for example types of deep bodywork that reveal and liberate negative patterns that are stored within - and have molded - the entire body-mind.

Many (or any) medicines can be usefully integrated with one's Zen practice, if approached from within essential point of awakening. Taking that wisdom as a gate or basis, I don't see any limitations to what could in general be encompassed within, and complement, so-called "Zen practice." The toolbox is potentially limitless.

That being said (and a bit off topic): I do have concerns with some psychological theory and treatment modalities, inasmuch as they reify views of self and personal history that can themselves become obstructions. I also agree with some of the push back that has been seen toward approaches solely using talk therapy, i.e. that do not effectively address the whole psycho-physical being. I believe what I would call a more "yogic" understanding of body-mind, as we work with in Zen practice, allows for approaches that are more quickly and deeply effective. A family member involved in the field with whom I often discuss the topic tells me there is certainly movement in this direction in many corners of the psychotherapeutic world (she, in fact, is involved with one such system). I think that encouraging.
fuki wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:56 am
It seems a teachers these days needs to be a bit of both, or either refuse those "instable" ppl and send them to a good psychologist.
A Zen teacher needs to at least have some sense of when a student should be referred to a psychological and/or medical professional. Traditionally it is considered a grave error to give emptiness teachings to someone not ready for them. One way I would express that same concern today is that some students who, for example, do not have minimal healthy ego development and boundaries, who have experienced severe trauma especially involving devaluation of their person-hood, who suffer from self-hatred, self-harming behaviors, suicidal ideation, etc. might not be ready for some aspects of Zen practice. But those aspects which can help the person to relax, to see and work with patterns of being caught up in conceptual fabrication, to stabilize, and so on may be useful.

I have recently come to understand that even things like normal abdominal breathing can be too frightening to attempt for someone whose trauma is intensely body-focused. A student with experience of sexual abuse can find it difficult to place her hands anywhere below the navel or near the pelvis while sitting in meditation posture...and perhaps cannot be touched in some ways to correct posture. Someone with a trauma history might find the sight/sound of the keisaku striking someone to be too much...and a teacher needs to know that when that person freezes/dissociates, it is not a case of the student being unaware/sleepy/lazy/disrespectful, and the last thing they need is a good sharp yell.

The solution is not to change the training, of course. It's to make allowances where needed, since we have opened the training up to everyone.
fuki wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:56 am
I was always reminded by other non-buddhist traditions that even "seeing nature" does not mean one's karma is resolved, one still needs to uproot the vasanas.
In Rinzai practice too kensho is generally taken as the entrance, not a completion at all. One had better continue.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:27 am

Many thanks for your detailed reply. Are there any specific types of deep bodywork, and other body-based treatments, that you would recommend, that are commercially available?

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Meido » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:49 am

No expert here, but my opinions:

For bodywork, i think Rolfing is good. It doesn't feel good. But it brings one's awareness into the body, and can facilitate lasting change.

There is also a system created by one of Ida Rolf's and Moshe Feldenkrais' students, the late American body worker Dub Leigh, integrating aspects of those teacher's systems with what he learned from his Zen teacher: Leigh called this new system Zentherapy, interestingly enough. If you can find someone in your area who does that, it's worth it (in terms of finding practitioners, it has a stronger presence in Europe).

Some practitioners of traditional Japanese and Chinese systems I've seen were excellent. I've thought that some Indian systems would be worth exploring.

RE psychotherapy systems engaging the body, the family member I mentioned practices something called Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, and thinks very highly of it in terms of results treating clients for whom other methods have had mixed results, e.g. those with histories including early and intense trauma. From what I've seen of it, I like it.

I'm sure others could chime in with more suggestions.

[Actually I'll split this discussion off into a new thread, in case there are more suggestions and it could serve as a resource for folks].

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:55 am

Meido" wrote:That being said (and a bit off topic): I do have concerns with some psychological theory and treatment modalities, inasmuch as they reify views of self and personal history that can themselves become obstructions
Do you mean ‘transforming’ the fragile self-image from the ‘negative’ to the ‘positive’ you see in psychotherapy or self-help systems?
All of my romantic relationships were with woman being sexual abused in their childhoods and later on as well, as well as most female friends too, many of them also seeking a career in prostitution. It’s obvious any self-image is as changeful as the weather and thus constantly needs to be re-transformed or reasserted with this psychological obsession of seeking the positive and avoiding the negative. Often called “transforming” or “healing” the negative but there’s no such thing, since positive and negative aren’t emotions but labels we give to emotions. I have much respect for teachers who can work with so many kinds of people from different backgrounds and psychological “histories” who identify it with the present and project it into the future, which ofcourse is the very thing which creates and reify’s that which is attempted to overcome (or heal) in the first place. Only what’s not real needs to be constantly reasserted to keep it alive, poor souls. I’m useless to them (from my “zen pov”) so I definitely encourage any Buddhist teachers to have a wide set of knowledge and tools for so many different people. Was this different in the past relating to what you said “since we have opened the training up to everyone”?
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:13 pm

I have a goodly amount of interest in this field these days, given that I began psychotherapy studies last year. Given that our tradition is strongly focused on self-therapy, It's been very illuminating for my practise as well.

I am also finding at the moment, that there is stuff I need to unlearn from from years of Buddhist practise that have basically played right into the hand of the hangups I've carried from childhood to adulthood.

For example, same as therapists typically end up as therapists due to childhood issues necessitating the child to navigate the needs of the parent(s) to survive, it's becoming apparent to me (at least from the small sample size of me and the few others in our group who have meditation experience) that the drive towards meditation and a spiritual path is often rooted in a self-sufficiency learned from childhood lessons of abandonment and learning from a very young age that since your nearest ones will not meet your needs, you had to learn how to do so yourself. Of course, meditational practise can never fulfil the original loneliness and emotional need of having fulfilling relations and trust in others enough to rely on them for that, but it is perhaps a good example of the side effects being able to outweigh the original need. :lol:

And it has certainly been a convenient pattern for me that I learned in childhood that my needs were unimportant to others and that I need to make them invisible to give room to other people's emotional needs -> And then learning from Buddhism that my needs are fundamentally invalid anyway as they are rooted in ignorance; and aiming towards the image of the spiritually developed person having cleansed himself of such needs anyway and responding compassionately to the world without such interference. oops. Guess my attraction to certain branches of Buddhism (as opposed to tantra, for example) wasn't entirely coincidental.

That, combined with the fact that my childhood patterns of self-reliance revolved around a 'safe space' where I didn't have to relate and respond to the world around me (where childhood 'me' could just be 'me') has also illuminated some tendencies in my practise, showing that my habitual approach to practise is really very Hinayana - I naturally gravitate towards the 'transcendent', the aspect of awareness that is untouched by what is arising; "letting go" easily becomes "checking out". I instinctively dislike being in the present to the extent that it forces me to relate and respond to the world around me - Above all, it is an intensely private sphere for me. My instinctive body has had to be dragged kicking and screaming towards the notion that group practise has any real merit (it hasn't moved much, tbh) or that teachers could be anything more than an experienced external reviewer providing rational critical input (hi Meido Image).

These are all patterns I've not been able to make meaningful contact with through my Buddhist practise, on the contrary have shaped my approach to practise(!). But have come to fore from less than a year of psychotherapeutic work.

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:17 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:55 am
Meido" wrote:That being said (and a bit off topic): I do have concerns with some psychological theory and treatment modalities, inasmuch as they reify views of self and personal history that can themselves become obstructions
Do you mean ‘transforming’ the fragile self-image from the ‘negative’ to the ‘positive’ you see in psychotherapy or self-help systems?
I am also curious about the dynamic between the 'healthy self image' of psychotherapy vis-a-vis the non-self 'releasing the narrative' approach of Buddhism.

The approach in our tradition is 'organic', so there is little in the way of using stratagems for coping or locking in on specific issues to fix them - It is more about developing and allround healthy and conscious relationship with one's emotional needs.

As such, the fundamentally healthy person in our tradition is someone who has made conscious his or her repressed needs (mostly, but not exclusively) from childhood and is therefore able to manage them from the perspective of a conscious adult, and has achieved a total integration between body (the primary vehicle and storehouse of emotion, both current and repressed) and mind.
Because (s)he is no longer living out repressed needs from the past to try and fulfil them somehow and has integrated body and mind, (s)he is very much rooted in living in the present moment and is able to act spontaneously from that place, since his or her un-repressed needs now have a healthy and conscious mobility and are tempered by a natural sensitivity and compassion, developed from his or her own bodily sensitivity and the energy that was previously locked into repressed needs having been made freely available. This kind of emotional health is generally seen as usually requiring decades of therapeutic work to get to though.

Year 3 of our studies is solely devoted to the body, which I am told is the most intense of the four years. So looking forward to that!

For me, I can see how my long exposure to Buddhism has created a subtly antagonistic view towards my emotional hangups that is quite a contrast to the very caring approach our psycho-therapeutic tradition takes towards them, which takes the position that all of them originate somehow from a situation that was very understandable and natural to respond to like that - giving the repressed emotions a welcoming and warm room to come out and realise that while it was a perfectly valid response at the time, it may not be serving the same purpose now and finding a different more conscious way of expressing and navigating that emotional need now. And also being able to manage in a conscious manner when you are not able to have them fulfilled. Knowing them and having a caring relationship with them in itself makes them healthy and mobile, as opposed to the reactionary and fixated state they exist in during various stages of repression.

In a way, developing such a natural and conscious relationship with one's emotional needs reminds me a lot of "when hungry, I eat. When tired, I sleep."

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:53 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:13 pm

For example, same as therapists typically end up as therapists due to childhood issues necessitating the child to navigate the needs of the parent(s) to survive,
Are you touching up upon parentification here?
And then learning from Buddhism that my needs are fundamentally invalid anyway as they are rooted in ignorance; and aiming towards the image of the spiritually developed person having cleansed himself of such needs anyway and responding compassionately to the world without such interference.
Same here, yet I attribute that to my own convenient (mis)interpretations of Buddhism, which allowed the 'childhood me', to be even more me, and lock the outside world and all the "evil parents/school kids" etc)out. All in the merit of avoidance, an understandable conditioning for any living being.
That, combined with the fact that my childhood patterns of self-reliance revolved around a 'safe space' where I didn't have to relate and respond to the world around me (where childhood 'me' could just be 'me') has also illuminated some tendencies in my practise, showing that my habitual approach to practise is really very Hinayana - I naturally gravitate towards the 'transcendent', the aspect of awareness that is untouched by what is arising; "letting go" easily becomes "checking out". I instinctively dislike being in the present to the extent that it forces me to relate and respond to the world around me - Above all, it is an intensely private sphere for me. My instinctive body has had to be dragged kicking and screaming towards the notion that group practise has any real merit (it hasn't moved much, tbh) or that teachers could be anything more than an experienced external reviewer providing rational critical input (hi Meido Image).
For me the same idea that group practise or teachers can't help much is linked due to always having to do everything alone, keep myself save, as parents never were parents and teachers never were teachers, no one outside of me (physical body) can be a "safe space" even if there's the obvious causal observant that others are of 'merit' there will "always" be remnants of these idea because they simply have become physical habits instead of emotional reactivity, and even the notion of an "outside world" conditions it, something as simple as looking at the sun, or seeing a bird flying through the sky, let alone people. As a kid listening to heavy metal bands were my bodhisattvas, way way more helpful then any educational message or therapy/religion out there. :lol:

Yet full attention leaves no room for a conceptual center, If no center then no place to plant the fake and flaky flag of you know who, just everything everywhere joyfully modifying emptiness to appear and disappear as itself in its various attires, masks, or wispy little nothings! Which are nice words to once more use concepts of emptiness in the function of spiritual bypassing. There is no safety, such is the highest "freedom" yet tell that to that habitual rascal mind! There needs to be some balance between the "ease" of just being and the "hardship" of becoming, before able to let go of that noise and habitual data parading down the neural boulevard.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by jundocohen » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:49 pm

There are many psychological issues which a Zen teacher, unless a qualified mental health professional, should be hesitant to treat.

My usual answer when this topic comes up: I believe that, in the very stillness of letting life be "as is it" and embracing all of life ... and in dropping the hard borders and divisions between our "self" and the world ... this practice does thereby leave almost all people better ... and often does work an effective cure or is one helpful part of the cure ... in many cases of depression, stress, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing ....

However, my advice for all these conditions, including for other conditions involving physical illness or disability, has to be the same:

Please seek treatment and counseling by a medical or mental health professional in your community with expertise in treating your condition. If the doctor recommends or approves of your participating here, and sitting Zazen, then you are more than welcome to do so. If the doctor recommends against it, then we request the person not to do so.

That is all we can do, given that the patient and doctor are the ones who truly understand the person's condition.

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:15 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:49 pm
My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.
Yes, although ppl seek 'zen practise' to distract themselves from what should best be handled 'outside of zen'
So if then the person nor the teacher is aware of this, it's kind of a recipe for disaster, especially if the teacher isn't really interested in "saving all beings", just as not all professional psychotherapists are interested in helping the patient. In Practise there is nothing to fix or to save, but this is only one aspect of it, eventhough everything is already "whole and complete as it is" the vasanas still drive our actions, hence I can't imagine the Responsibilty a teacher must have, and in some Buddhist cultures taking refuge is just another distraction and means to do horrible acts for the sake of keeping lineages going with empty credentials.
If Buddhism thinks taking 5 year olds away from their family and shaving their heads has anything to do with compassion then I'm the devil :hatsoff:
No minor should ever be forced or indroctinated into any religion, but alas that's how "culture" works I guess, and we go through insane lengths to preserve it and justify this behaviour.
Sorry off topicish.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
lobster
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:47 am

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lobster » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:54 am

:560: Great posts everyone :110:

I am a great believer in life as a recovery from Zen.

In other words, food therapy, flower therapy, aromatherapy. Sweat lodges, saunas. Pro active beauty salons. Retail therapy ... :114:

Walking, yoga, swimming, goat worshipping ... :hatsoff:

Some important points about some psychologies being for ego build up ... which is OK for wounded or damaged psychiatrists, psychologists and zenned out experts ... :558:

So to continue, hypnosis, music therapy, tree hugging ... [lobster rants off into the sunset] :555:

User avatar
lindama
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lindama » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:02 am

hey lobster

:109:

my teacher says there is nothing that is not zen....

it's a kindness that has no end.

linda

User avatar
lindama
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lindama » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:28 am

Many are recovering from Western urban civilization's nature deprivation syndrome. Welcome Home.
Understand what it means to be a human being. What karmic forces evolved so that you have arrived at this point of space and time?
Mind has a body and body has a mind. Together they are one and form a third.
All humans have a mother/father -- stars and planet, crown and seat in common. All mother/father sentient beings and all of co-evolution conspire together to create our integral inter-beingness. All have mother/father (moon/earth) antecedents /ancestors the same. We and thee are its living representatives. Human's please claim your rightful heritage, your gift, power, and essential nature.
~ Shakti Das
(a heart friend on FB who I have never met)
Long ago, I left PhD in Psychology ABD ... it was too small after all that. I had done my share of exploration and catharsis. At the end of the day, life is not an improvement project. I am grateful for the work up to that point. still, not knowing is the most intimate, as the koan goes. something about 84.000 ways

linda

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:40 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:53 pm
Are you touching up upon parentification here?
To some extent, yes.
Same here, yet I attribute that to my own convenient (mis)interpretations of Buddhism, which allowed the 'childhood me', to be even more me, and lock the outside world and all the "evil parents/school kids" etc)out. All in the merit of avoidance, an understandable conditioning for any living being.
It's been almost a bit scary to me how perfectly we are able to subconsciously choose and perceive these things to keep our childhood survival habits going. I rationally understood that anyone can fall prey to spiritual by-passing by not wanting to question themselves, but I didn't realise how primed we are, or at least I am, for spiritual bypass by our most precious emotional patterns that basically dictate our [perceived sense of emotional] survival.
For me the same idea that group practise or teachers can't help much is linked due to always having to do everything alone, keep myself save, as parents never were parents and teachers never were teachers, no one outside of me (physical body) can be a "safe space" even if there's the obvious causal observant that others are of 'merit' there will "always" be remnants of these idea because they simply have become physical habits instead of emotional reactivity
Very much so. At this point, consciously choosing to try and invest myself in others, and being willing to feel very fearful, socially insecure, awkward and even childishly needy in doing so, is moving some things around for me in there , so I can't say so far that it is locked as a physical habit. I doubt that pathway of perceptual habit will ever be erased, but it seems like new ones can be forged too by working with the emotions these perceptions were rooted in.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:07 pm

Anders wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:40 am

Very much so. At this point, consciously choosing to try and invest myself in others, and being willing to feel very fearful, socially insecure, awkward and even childishly needy in doing so, is moving some things around for me in there , so I can't say so far that it is locked as a physical habit. I doubt that pathway of perceptual habit will ever be erased, but it seems like new ones can be forged too by working with the emotions these perceptions were rooted in.
I doubt anything will be ever erased, that is simply conditioning, causality etc "Liberation" lies not in fears/anxiety no longer appearing but in the way we "deal" with them, I'm reminded of a wise saying "memory is a good servant but a bad master" We got to work with what is here, only the notion that something must be eradicated is a mistake IMO, again fear is just fear, I have no need to label it as "positive" or "negative" but I can't speak for others. Working with the body is the most important part I think, best wishes!
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Anders » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:06 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:07 pm
Working with the body is the most important part I think, best wishes!
What does this mean to you?

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:42 am

Anders wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:06 am
fuki wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:07 pm
Working with the body is the most important part I think, best wishes!
What does this mean to you?
Depends on the individual, but speaking from my own and other examples (ppl) I know it means getting the body out of the comfort zone to that what conditions the fear to arise, but in a gentle way, not forced ofcourse. For instance a friend of mine was gangraped last summer after being drugged so you can imagine the panic attacks by simply meeting ppl or going outside, talking to psychotherapists is one thing but the only thing which really got true results was getting a dog (the right dog ofcourse) which gave comfort in learning to go outside again, the beauty about it is the dog sensed everything perfectly so it was the dog who guided whether she was ready to walk where and how long, it also could sense the panic attacks coming before the human was conscious of it and could take appropiate action, so the dog could make sure there was effort/fear (courage) but could also prevent it becoming too much to handle.

but in whatever situation getting the body out of the zone not as distraction but consciously working and observing with that which arises, sports, physical therapy anything, not avoiding what conditions the fear but also taking some comfort/safety along (whatever or whoever that is)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
lobster
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:47 am

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lobster » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:24 am

lindama wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:02 am
hey lobster

:109:

my teacher says there is nothing that is not zen....

it's a kindness that has no end.

linda
Sounds right to me.
It is all therapy, all pop and un-pop zen, beginners and beggars mind. When I say mind that would include:
* thinking
* emotions
* body
* no-thinking for the calmed
* experience or the outer whirled that dances across our inner world
etc

Kindness without end :110: Seems like a master plan ... :558:

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:41 am

Don't forget colour therapy for "adults"

Image
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Post Reply