Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Moderator: Spiritual Do-gooder

User avatar
Fruitzilla
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:36 am
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Fruitzilla » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:42 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:13 pm
I have a goodly amount of interest in this field these days, given that I began psychotherapy studies last year. Given that our tradition is strongly focused on self-therapy, It's been very illuminating for my practise as well.

I am also finding at the moment, that there is stuff I need to unlearn from from years of Buddhist practise that have basically played right into the hand of the hangups I've carried from childhood to adulthood.

For example, same as therapists typically end up as therapists due to childhood issues necessitating the child to navigate the needs of the parent(s) to survive, it's becoming apparent to me (at least from the small sample size of me and the few others in our group who have meditation experience) that the drive towards meditation and a spiritual path is often rooted in a self-sufficiency learned from childhood lessons of abandonment and learning from a very young age that since your nearest ones will not meet your needs, you had to learn how to do so yourself. Of course, meditational practise can never fulfil the original loneliness and emotional need of having fulfilling relations and trust in others enough to rely on them for that, but it is perhaps a good example of the side effects being able to outweigh the original need. :lol:

And it has certainly been a convenient pattern for me that I learned in childhood that my needs were unimportant to others and that I need to make them invisible to give room to other people's emotional needs -> And then learning from Buddhism that my needs are fundamentally invalid anyway as they are rooted in ignorance; and aiming towards the image of the spiritually developed person having cleansed himself of such needs anyway and responding compassionately to the world without such interference. oops. Guess my attraction to certain branches of Buddhism (as opposed to tantra, for example) wasn't entirely coincidental.

That, combined with the fact that my childhood patterns of self-reliance revolved around a 'safe space' where I didn't have to relate and respond to the world around me (where childhood 'me' could just be 'me') has also illuminated some tendencies in my practise, showing that my habitual approach to practise is really very Hinayana - I naturally gravitate towards the 'transcendent', the aspect of awareness that is untouched by what is arising; "letting go" easily becomes "checking out". I instinctively dislike being in the present to the extent that it forces me to relate and respond to the world around me - Above all, it is an intensely private sphere for me. My instinctive body has had to be dragged kicking and screaming towards the notion that group practise has any real merit (it hasn't moved much, tbh) or that teachers could be anything more than an experienced external reviewer providing rational critical input (hi Meido Image).

These are all patterns I've not been able to make meaningful contact with through my Buddhist practise, on the contrary have shaped my approach to practise(!). But have come to fore from less than a year of psychotherapeutic work.
Yeah, most Buddhist practice doesn't cover all bases to becoming fully human. There's a lot of blind spots ( as there are in every discipline ).

My "detour" was and is the Alexander Technique. After years of sitting zazen I came to a place where, when I reached a certain level of relaxation, an enormous amount of fear came to the surface. So much that it caused me physical problems, especially in combination with the hours of deskwork I did for my dayjob.

I couldn't get an answer within Zen except for the advice to "sit through it", so I went shopping for a way which did have an answer. I had heard of the Alexander Technique through Chodo Cross of Shobogenzo translation fame, so I thought I'd have a look there. They did promise I could get to understand the root cause of my problems and prevent them, so that sounded good enough..

I realized I needed it so much, I decided to do the teacher training, which consists of 3 years of retraining your thinking with hands on guidance of a teacher so it can condition your nervous system to get more expansion in both length and width in the muscular system. It probably sound really strange, but it's the most revolutionary thing I've ever come across.
By teaching the nervous system to slowly release old maladaptive habits, mostly caused by fear, and heightening your awareness so you can prevent engaging in those habits again, you sort of become supple and free again like a child, in a grownup way.
For me, it put an end to my shyness and got me back to the sort of happiness you get when your habitual patterns of body and mind don't get in the way. Needless to say, it also didn't get rid of a lot of other stuff because of it's own blind spots. But hey, what can you do :558:

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:59 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:04 pm

They clearly are a cult no? By the way, they moved out of their building in Amsterdam. It's being demolished on the inside last I saw. I liked that :113:
Is the pope Catholic? :106:

Ah good news, buy the building if you can. We can host all kinds of events, meido events, gg events, Jundo events, therapeutic events, dart events etc :D
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:03 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:42 pm
Anders wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:13 pm
[SPOILER]
I have a goodly amount of interest in this field these days, given that I began psychotherapy studies last year. Given that our tradition is strongly focused on self-therapy, It's been very illuminating for my practise as well.

I am also finding at the moment, that there is stuff I need to unlearn from from years of Buddhist practise that have basically played right into the hand of the hangups I've carried from childhood to adulthood.

For example, same as therapists typically end up as therapists due to childhood issues necessitating the child to navigate the needs of the parent(s) to survive, it's becoming apparent to me (at least from the small sample size of me and the few others in our group who have meditation experience) that the drive towards meditation and a spiritual path is often rooted in a self-sufficiency learned from childhood lessons of abandonment and learning from a very young age that since your nearest ones will not meet your needs, you had to learn how to do so yourself. Of course, meditational practise can never fulfil the original loneliness and emotional need of having fulfilling relations and trust in others enough to rely on them for that, but it is perhaps a good example of the side effects being able to outweigh the original need. :lol:

And it has certainly been a convenient pattern for me that I learned in childhood that my needs were unimportant to others and that I need to make them invisible to give room to other people's emotional needs -> And then learning from Buddhism that my needs are fundamentally invalid anyway as they are rooted in ignorance; and aiming towards the image of the spiritually developed person having cleansed himself of such needs anyway and responding compassionately to the world without such interference. oops. Guess my attraction to certain branches of Buddhism (as opposed to tantra, for example) wasn't entirely coincidental.

That, combined with the fact that my childhood patterns of self-reliance revolved around a 'safe space' where I didn't have to relate and respond to the world around me (where childhood 'me' could just be 'me') has also illuminated some tendencies in my practise, showing that my habitual approach to practise is really very Hinayana - I naturally gravitate towards the 'transcendent', the aspect of awareness that is untouched by what is arising; "letting go" easily becomes "checking out". I instinctively dislike being in the present to the extent that it forces me to relate and respond to the world around me - Above all, it is an intensely private sphere for me. My instinctive body has had to be dragged kicking and screaming towards the notion that group practise has any real merit (it hasn't moved much, tbh) or that teachers could be anything more than an experienced external reviewer providing rational critical input (hi Meido Image).

These are all patterns I've not been able to make meaningful contact with through my Buddhist practise, on the contrary have shaped my approach to practise(!). But have come to fore from less than a year of psychotherapeutic work.

Yeah, most Buddhist practice doesn't cover all bases to becoming fully human. There's a lot of blind spots ( as there are in every discipline ).

My "detour" was and is the Alexander Technique. After years of sitting zazen I came to a place where, when I reached a certain level of relaxation, an enormous amount of fear came to the surface. So much that it caused me physical problems, especially in combination with the hours of deskwork I did for my dayjob.

I couldn't get an answer within Zen except for the advice to "sit through it", so I went shopping for a way which did have an answer. I had heard of the Alexander Technique through Chodo Cross of Shobogenzo translation fame, so I thought I'd have a look there. They did promise I could get to understand the root cause of my problems and prevent them, so that sounded good enough..

I realized I needed it so much, I decided to do the teacher training, which consists of 3 years of retraining your thinking with hands on guidance of a teacher so it can condition your nervous system to get more expansion in both length and width in the muscular system. It probably sound really strange, but it's the most revolutionary thing I've ever come across.
By teaching the nervous system to slowly release old maladaptive habits, mostly caused by fear, and heightening your awareness so you can prevent engaging in those habits again, you sort of become supple and free again like a child, in a grownup way.
For me, it put an end to my shyness and got me back to the sort of happiness you get when your habitual patterns of body and mind don't get in the way. Needless to say, it also didn't get rid of a lot of other stuff because of it's own blind spots. But hey, what can you do :558:


We should have a beer sometimes, then we can take a pic and send it to bokki :D
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
lindama
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lindama » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:26 pm

:558:
well, in between the ins and outs of therapeutic complements to zen... I just talked to a woman on the phone (at work)... she son Sklyer, entering first grader next yr.... has already been told he can't read, school not helping. GHASP! Mom is not having it, she has grown children too so knows the routine. I sell kids summer reading programs. He's just a young guy who wants to do it right and needs more practice and confidence. he'll do fine. I hear sad stories every day. So it begins...

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:39 pm

The school is saying that?
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
lindama
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by lindama » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:44 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:39 pm
The school is saying that?
not sure who said it... tho the teacher has written him off already

edit... not his mom
Last edited by lindama on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Fruitzilla
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:36 am
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Fruitzilla » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:47 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:59 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:04 pm

They clearly are a cult no? By the way, they moved out of their building in Amsterdam. It's being demolished on the inside last I saw. I liked that :113:
Is the pope Catholic? :106:

Ah good news, buy the building if you can. We can host all kinds of events, meido events, gg events, Jundo events, therapeutic events, dart events etc :D
If only I had a penny to my name...
I'm sure we'll have a beer sometime though. That I can afford!

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:06 pm

lindama wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:44 pm
fuki wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:39 pm
The school is saying that?
not sure who said it... tho the teacher has written him off already

edit... not his mom
It's sad in this dog eat dog world, may the kid blossom to its full potential and beyond that, eventhough no one should tell or expect the kid to change into anything or expect the kid to be or become anything.
:110:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:09 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:47 pm

If only I had a penny to my name...
I'm sure we'll have a beer sometime though. That I can afford!
My fav place to meet ppl I don't know is excalibur in Amsterdam, the (heavy metal) music is so loud that you can't have a conversation. When the shock is complete find a place relatively quiet and eat a pizza :lol:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:42 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:42 pm
My "detour" was and is the Alexander Technique.
I briefly dabbled with the Alexander Technique in Hong Kong in the early 90's. I was working in radio & suffering voice loss problems due to stress & bad posture. Because of its history, Alexander sounded like an ideal thing to try. So I went to a therapist on a weekly basis for 3 or 4 months. It didn't actually do much for me. But I think my body, ultimately, just wanted me to get the hell out of Hong Kong & radio. Which I did soon afterwards.

These days I have an Advaita friend whose an Alexander therapist. And he actually mixes the Alexander with yogic techniques & nondual philosophy, with certain clients, when it intuitively feels right.

User avatar
Fruitzilla
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:36 am
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:08 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:42 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:42 pm
My "detour" was and is the Alexander Technique.
I briefly dabbled with the Alexander Technique in Hong Kong in the early 90's. I was working in radio & suffering voice loss problems due to stress & bad posture. Because of its history, Alexander sounded like an ideal thing to try. So I went to a therapist on a weekly basis for 3 or 4 months. It didn't actually do much for me. But I think my body, ultimately, just wanted me to get the hell out of Hong Kong & radio. Which I did soon afterwards.

These days I have an Advaita friend whose an Alexander therapist. And he actually mixes the Alexander with yogic techniques & nondual philosophy, with certain clients, when it intuitively feels right.
Yeah, almost everyone needs regular and prolonged exposure to it to make it your own. One lesson a week, especially in the beginning, just isn't enough.
Oh, and don't call us therapists. It's an occupational pet peeve... :100:

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Larry » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:48 am

Sorry. Guess it should have been teachers.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:40 am

fruitzilla wrote:Yeah, almost everyone needs regular and prolonged exposure to it to make it your own. One lesson a week, especially in the beginning, just isn't enough.
60 euros for 50 minutes :107:
http://www.alexandertechniekhaarlem.nl/

this sounds actually perfect for my mom fruitzilla, she takes oxycodon for years otherwise she can't function due to the pain.
do you think alexander technique could be helpful for such people too? anything which can help with energy/balance, more freedom in her daily activities would be a blessing for her.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Fruitzilla
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:36 am
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Fruitzilla » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:42 am

Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:48 am
Sorry. Guess it should have been teachers.
No probs, it's just that when you do something for a long time, it's easy to get a bit oversensitive... :556:

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:48 am

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:42 am
Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:48 am
Sorry. Guess it should have been teachers.
No probs, it's just that when you do something for a long time, it's easy to get a bit oversensitive... :556:
Or a lesson-giver
[SPOILER]
Hoezo eigenlijk 'lessen'?

Waarom spreken we eigenlijk van 'lessen' Alexander- techniek, in plaats van therapie of behandeling? Omdat deze termen suggereren dat 'de behandelaar' jouw problemen oplost of jou een goed gevoel geeft. Bij Alexander techniek leer je echter een praktische methode waarmee je zelf aan de slag kunt om vanuit het geheel te sleutelen aan je coördinatie, balans en bewustzijn. De leraar helpt je hierbij, maar uiteindelijk doe je het zelf!
reminds me of caoshan and shishuang :lol:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Fruitzilla
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:36 am
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Fruitzilla » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:32 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:48 am
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:42 am
Larry wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:48 am
Sorry. Guess it should have been teachers.
No probs, it's just that when you do something for a long time, it's easy to get a bit oversensitive... :556:
Or a lesson-giver
[SPOILER]
Hoezo eigenlijk 'lessen'?

Waarom spreken we eigenlijk van 'lessen' Alexander- techniek, in plaats van therapie of behandeling? Omdat deze termen suggereren dat 'de behandelaar' jouw problemen oplost of jou een goed gevoel geeft. Bij Alexander techniek leer je echter een praktische methode waarmee je zelf aan de slag kunt om vanuit het geheel te sleutelen aan je coördinatie, balans en bewustzijn. De leraar helpt je hierbij, maar uiteindelijk doe je het zelf!
reminds me of caoshan and shishuang :lol:
Hah! We actually also use our hands to give the "student" an experience, so maybe a bit dzogchenny, although completely different.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:38 am

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:32 am

Hah! We actually also use our hands to give the "student" an experience, so maybe a bit dzogchenny, although completely different.
I got my Reiki masters degree somewhere 15 years ago, combine it with a bit of tantra massage... oh no I'll stop now. :106:

ps did you read the post regarding my mom a few posts back, PM would also do, thanks!
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm

Not sure if I have something of value to add, but I do find this topic very intriguing.

Some years back I was shocked to find that ever very rigorous Zen training over some decades complete with multiple realisations, does not always result in the practitioner leaving all their "issues" behind them (I am not speaking of myself here, just to be clear - the latter applies, the former doesn't). Was it because the realisations were not deep enough? Was it the person's karma?? Would something else have helped??

I strongly suspect the answer to all three questions is "yes".

Bodywork sounds intriguing, and it is still a very marginal force in anglophone psychotherapy, it seems. Having started Judo nearly a year ago, I can feel the amazing effect this training has on my mind (and a somewhat less amazing one on the joints...). I can only guess what a dedicated therapy would do, but don't know.

Through practice it's been a great blessing to see some old habits just fall by the wayside, and yet others remain. Is it because my practice isn't good enough? Very very possible. It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind... So again... I do not know.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:03 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 pm
Through practice it's been a great blessing to see some old habits just fall by the wayside, and yet others remain. Is it because my practice isn't good enough? Very very possible. It is hard to believe that a thorough sustained practice would not sweep away these cobwebs of mind... So again... I do not know.
But mind does not exist in itself, so how is it revealed?
28764397_307784016416146_8670637388269092864_n.jpg
28764397_307784016416146_8670637388269092864_n.jpg (52.16 KiB) Viewed 114 times
What is neither eradicated or remaining?
:106:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Therapeutic Complements to Zen

Post by Dan74 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:10 pm

Um... hindrances, vexations, etc have their momentum, as much as their are empty blah blah blah... So I am not getting what you are trying to get at, fuki?

Post Reply