Anti-Kenshō?

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Great Sage EofH
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Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:18 pm

In a recent Patheos blog posting Dosho Port says there’s another guy on another on another blog teaching anti-Kenshō teachings. Ignoring that such s statement is our hearsay and not worthy of printing, much less harboring in your heart, who is he referring to? I’d love to debate this issue but there are no quotation marks, nor is it ascribed to anyone. Maybe it’s fake news? Unlike Sun WuKong, I don’t call myself The Great Sage Equal to Heaven, but I could afford to win a debate finally. Names! I need names!
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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KeithA
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by KeithA » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:02 pm

We used to have a "can of worms" emoji at ZFI...we could so use that now! At least it's in the soto forum. :113:
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bokki
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by bokki » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:45 pm

no names 4 u. totaly anonymous ...names, lol.
kensho..lol, not there, nowhere, all at once, forever, and dont seek chit.
the whole history of zen is based on one thing. enlightenment.
u have a word 2 add? plz do
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burst into flames.
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Dan74
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Dan74 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:24 pm

Probably Brad Warner.

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bokki
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by bokki » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:50 pm

lo, thats a nice breakdown,..lol, lol
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:54 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:24 pm
Probably Brad Warner.
Gasp !
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:56 pm

bokki wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:45 pm
no names 4 u. totaly anonymous ...names, lol.
kensho..lol, not there, nowhere, all at once, forever, and dont seek chit.
the whole history of zen is based on one thing. enlightenment.
u have a word 2 add? plz do
Yes I’ll add a word, without Kenshō we’d all still be climbing trees and eating bananas
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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KeithA
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by KeithA » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:02 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:56 pm
bokki wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:45 pm
no names 4 u. totaly anonymous ...names, lol.
kensho..lol, not there, nowhere, all at once, forever, and dont seek chit.
the whole history of zen is based on one thing. enlightenment.
u have a word 2 add? plz do
Yes I’ll add a word, without Kenshō we’d all still be climbing trees and eating bananas
If you google soto and kensho, you will see not digging kensho is the party line. I am sure Jundo will be along soon to elaborate. To be honest, we don't mention it much in Kwan Um, unless it's with a teacher. :112:

_/|\_
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Caodemarte
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:05 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:54 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:24 pm
Probably Brad Warner.
Gasp !
Brad describes his own “enlightenment experience” on his blog. I would be very surprised if he was “anti-Kensho.” Please don’t send people spoiling for an internet fight his way or anybody’s way :116:, especially on speculation.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:07 am

Brushing up on my Dogen, anyway during his life-time there was a competing practice doing exactly what he criticizes, setting Kenshō up as a goal. He goes round about and posits a practice which is rather synonymous with Kensho, if you examine it. I find thinking about it to be too speculative. In today’s world people tend to think of self/ego as something concrete, which acts on its own behalf in spite of our best intentions, it protects its turf, it asserts itself. Peel that away and it looks more fluid and malleable, ill-defined, subjective. There’s an idea of a person, but it’s only an idea. It’s not permanent, independent, and clinging to the ego makes us sick. What Kenshō really is, Dogen does not oppose. In fact the practices he proposes lead directly to it. Just by another name.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am

I started looking for Mr Warner’s enlightenment experience description but all I’m finding is quotes by a very angry unhappy young man. It’s too toxic for me to read, I’ve got my own struggle with anger and hostility - so if someone has the link it would be appreciated. The search process through that stuff is too tedious and painful
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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jundocohen
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am

Hi,

I do not know one Soto Teacher who rejects "Kensho" (Seeing the Nature), certainly not Brad and certainly not me.

But perhaps one needs to refine what one is speaking of.

If you are speaking of the image of a booming "Kensho" experience as was sometimes, in the early days of Zen in the West, projected in books like "Three Pillars of Zen," that one would somehow have this amazing, one off transformative non-experience and be a fully baked cake ... I don't know even many Harada-Yasutani folks who speak in such terms these days. If there was ever a hunger among certain Zen Practitioners for such a "Kensho or Bust," then yes, I think many Soto folks can be critical of that as just another kind of spiritual materialism.

However, if you mean what Dogen and many Soto folks call "Dropping Body & Mind" and realizing, as the hard borders that divide the image of self from the image of all that appears not oneself soften or fully fade away, that the Whole Enchilada is Enchiladaing as and through you ... such is as vital to us as any Zen folks. And if there is a "booming" Kensho, we neither run towards it and seek to cling to it for dear life, nor run away. We embrace such fully.

But there way be a couple of other subtle differences in approach too:

Some Buddhists believe that the point of this Practice is to realize what happens in that Whole Enchilllada moment and simply deepen and deepen, and embody and embody, the experience because what we experience in this ordinary life and experience as "ordinary life" is delusion and not it. Perhaps Meido a little bit expressed such a feeling on another thread today when he said ...
Confusing even a subtle, seemingly freeing concept of "non-conceptual" with actual non-conceptual, or the attempt to drop, dissolve, or liberate thoughts without the experiential up-welling of the realization of no-self, are not the fruition of the path at all in any Zen school. Even the most seemingly clear, relaxed, and liberated state, if subtly perfumed with dualistic seeing centered on "I", can not be said to be the gate of Zen at all.
Yet, I wonder too if that is really passing through the gateless gate, I believe that we also learn to see the "dualistic" and the "I" as just the "actual-nonceptual" in other guise all along, never two, nothing truly to fear, when seen with clarity. Buddha is obvious, and never hidden though sometimes hidden. Nirvana is always just Samsara to the Wise, but Samsara is not Nirvana if we are not careful. I sometimes describe a Buddha's Vision as seeing this world one way out of one eye (this ordinary world) and another way out of his other eye (the Wholeness and Harmony beyond all Division), and both eyes open together are the Clarity and Wisdom of a Buddha's Eye.

For that reason, we come to see the Whole Trip as Kensho, not merely some experience or destination. I sometimes explain it to my folks this way ... I feel that it speaks for itself, but it is basically an image of "the whole bus trip is us, man", and the whole bus, all the other passengers and the seats too, and the trip is the arrival, and passengers seem to get on and off but the bus rolls on and on, and all the beautiful and ugly scenes outside are just the trip too when seen with clarity ... and the trip is what we make it, and hangs on whether we encounter it as an endless frustrating trudge in circles getting nowhere or constant arrival ... but it is easy to lose the way and get lost, thus we had best drive carefully here and now!
Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

...

Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"? They do not realize is that the whole trip is WHAT IS! The wheels on the Buddha-Bus go round and round. :)

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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WoodsyLadyM
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by WoodsyLadyM » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:09 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am
I started looking for Mr Warner’s enlightenment experience description but all I’m finding is quotes by a very angry unhappy young man. It’s too toxic for me to read, I’ve got my own struggle with anger and hostility - so if someone has the link it would be appreciated. The search process through that stuff is too tedious and painful
Brad describes his kensho in Hardcore Zen on pages 96-98. Here's the link to the section on Google preview:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YIsDC ... an&f=false

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Crystal
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Crystal » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:47 am

.

Here's Brad answering a question about Kensho and talking about "enlightenment experiences".






.
Last edited by Crystal on Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:36 am

Crystal wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:47 am
.

Here's Brad answering a question about Kensho and talking about "enlightenment experiences". (the youtube button still isn't working for me)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqaXS5wDR4M[/youtube]



.
Thank you thank you thank you. I’ll apologize for my negative reaction to rants and criticizing and cutting down others. What I’m trying to get to is because my experience for example is “a” does that mean someone else’s experience as “b” is false. No that doesn’t follow. So if Foghorn Leghorn has a kensho experience that’s say, like an Oklahoma tornado, and That Little Old Gal That’s Just Crazy About Him has one that like picking daisies on a Summer Day, does that mean one or the other of them is by necessity “wrong” NO it does not so I’m not going to comment or generalize about others experiences because it’s not relevant. Maybe there is a reason some feel personal experiences are best kept between themselves and their teacher.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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KeithA
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by KeithA » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:22 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am
I started looking for Mr Warner’s enlightenment experience description but all I’m finding is quotes by a very angry unhappy young man. It’s too toxic for me to read, I’ve got my own struggle with anger and hostility - so if someone has the link it would be appreciated. The search process through that stuff is too tedious and painful
I felt very much that way about Warner at first. But I have to admit, he has grown on me. I have never read his books, but I do read his blog. Underneath the shtick, he can be pretty deep.

_/|\_
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Crystal
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Crystal » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:30 pm

KeithA wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:22 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am
I started looking for Mr Warner’s enlightenment experience description but all I’m finding is quotes by a very angry unhappy young man. It’s too toxic for me to read, I’ve got my own struggle with anger and hostility - so if someone has the link it would be appreciated. The search process through that stuff is too tedious and painful
I felt very much that way about Warner at first. But I have to admit, he has grown on me. I have never read his books, but I do read his blog. Underneath the shtick, he can be pretty deep.

_/|\_

Yes I read his blog and I like it. I also watch his videos occasionally and often find them entertaining as well as having some interesting things to say.

_/|\_

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KeithA
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by KeithA » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:25 pm

Crystal wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:30 pm
KeithA wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:22 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am
I started looking for Mr Warner’s enlightenment experience description but all I’m finding is quotes by a very angry unhappy young man. It’s too toxic for me to read, I’ve got my own struggle with anger and hostility - so if someone has the link it would be appreciated. The search process through that stuff is too tedious and painful
I felt very much that way about Warner at first. But I have to admit, he has grown on me. I have never read his books, but I do read his blog. Underneath the shtick, he can be pretty deep.

_/|\_

Yes I read his blog and I like it. I also watch his videos occasionally and often find them entertaining as well as having some interesting things to say.

_/|\_
Initially, I thought he just some kind of "shock jock" of Zen, but that was because I had really hadn't given him a chance. We (Warner) are close to the same age and I also was very much into punk as a younger person (while I was in the Army! go figure), so I guess I can kind of relate a little to his take on life and do think that what he has to say is usually worth considering.

Ah well, I guess we are in off-topic territory now. :106:

_/|\_
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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Anti-Kenshō?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:53 pm

Thanks everyone for your replies, Jundo clarifying certain points. I’m going to have to do a better job of filtering out messages I don’t want or need.

Good thing about this forum- no matter how poor the quality of my questions are, they seem to get put to good use. Thank you zen1.space owners, admins, and moderators, all teachers & practitioners :109:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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