Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

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fuki
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:51 pm

guo gu wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:44 pm
the way is not difficult
as long as one does not
pick and choose...
Screenshot_2018-02-13-16-44-10.png
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Fruitzilla
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by Fruitzilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:11 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:46 am
Thanks fruity!

No not yet, I liked all teachers but no long term established relationship, I even went to the Maitreya institute in Amsterdam much to the "objection" of our woodworker due to fear of mixing traditions but to me it was more for the conditions of the Sangha instead of the teacher or the tradition/philosophy. To me the method or non-method taught doesnt really matter its all "Zen" to me I used to have a muslim neighbour we sometimes practised together I have no problem being "humble in the presence of Allah" and bowing ;)
Ah,
For me it's not easy to find a teacher also. It's hard for me to take people too seriously, including myself. It's bit of a bind sometimes...

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by Fruitzilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:17 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:30 pm
I am all for mixing and matching Practices if one wishes and it is helpful, or even whole religions (folks can get up from Zazen and head to church) ...

... so long as folks truly know how to sit each day Shikantaza, the Practice of radical "nothing more needed, no other thing to do or place to go, no hole left unfilled" during the time of sitting.

Some folks run from Practice to Practice, guru to guru, Dharma book to dharma book completely missing the art of sitting and being with not need for anything else. In such case, they are just running running running, not knowing true resting resting resting.

But if someone can truly sit for a time in the Wholeness and Fulfillment of Shikantaza, then they can get up from the cushion and do many things, such as watch a baseball game or football, pet the cat or dance a jig, go to church or to a yoga class, eat a sandwich or a bowl of soup, practice vipassana or pray to Jesus or Amida.

Unfortunately we human beings do not know how truly to sit still, most spiritual seekers do not truly know how to put down the seeking for a time.

Gassho, J
Hi J,

I'm afraid I'm missing your point here. Who do you mean bye some folks or most spiritual seekers?

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jundocohen
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by jundocohen » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:17 pm
Who do you mean bye some folks or most spiritual seekers?
I mean most modern human beings I know, who get up in the morning and spend their day running after this and trying to get that done ...

... and I mean most spiritual seekers I know, who are trying to get some inner pay-off, pleasure or experience.

Gassho, Jundo
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by bokki » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:16 pm

[Fruitzilla wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:17 pm
Who do you mean bye some folks or most spiritual seekers?
I mean most modern human beings I know, who get up in the morning and spend their day running after this and trying to get that done ...

... and I mean most spiritual seekers I know, who are trying to get some inner pay-off, pleasure or experience.

Gassho, Jundo/quote]
sir, jundo, may i aks u,
and
who else
do u
know?
hmmm...hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by Fruitzilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:17 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:17 pm
Who do you mean bye some folks or most spiritual seekers?
I mean most modern human beings I know, who get up in the morning and spend their day running after this and trying to get that done ...

... and I mean most spiritual seekers I know, who are trying to get some inner pay-off, pleasure or experience.

Gassho, Jundo
Clear, thanks!

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fuki
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:56 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Ah,
For me it's not easy to find a teacher also. It's hard for me to take people too seriously, including myself. It's bit of a bind sometimes...
Can you elaborate? ppl who dont take themselves/things too seriously are often open minded humouros ppl. but it can also mean indifference, not 'inspired" etc

but ppl who are too serious are "serious" when its not called for seeing everything according to their churning emotional conflicts which are then projected unto anything under the sun in their lives, the most dangerous one of all their religion.

I can relate to taking myself not seriously at all lol but I take teachers very seriously, not meaning the words they utter perse but the direction and function of it.

But in order to find a suitable teacher one needs to be serious about the "great matter" I think, otherwise having a teacher-student relationship might be pretty useless to begin with.
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[james]
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by [james] » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:31 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:30 pm
I am all for mixing and matching Practices if one wishes and it is helpful, or even whole religions (folks can get up from Zazen and head to church) ...

... so long as folks truly know how to sit each day Shikantaza, the Practice of radical "nothing more needed, no other thing to do or place to go, no hole left unfilled" during the time of sitting.
Truly knowing this, there is nothing lost or gained by fully taking up whatever might enter one’s sphere.
Some folks run from Practice to Practice, guru to guru, Dharma book to dharma book completely missing the art of sitting and being with not need for anything else. In such case, they are just running running running, not knowing true resting resting resting.
It doesn’t have to be a matter of need ... could be joy, gratitude, exuberant curiosity. Yes, of course it could be need, longing, hunger, craving. Nothing necessarily wrong with that.
But if someone can truly sit for a time in the Wholeness and Fulfillment of Shikantaza, then they can get up from the cushion and do many things, such as watch a baseball game or football, pet the cat or dance a jig, go to church or to a yoga class, eat a sandwich or a bowl of soup, practice vipassana or pray to Jesus or Amida.
They could also choose to never sit again. Or as some have chosen, to never get up from that cushion. As deeply considered decisions, are those choices so very different?
Unfortunately we human beings do not know how truly to sit still, most spiritual seekers do not truly know how to put down the seeking for a time.
In knowing how to truly sit still, all doors are open.
In not knowing, all doors are there to be opened.
Both are rich in possibility.

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by Fruitzilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:56 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Ah,
For me it's not easy to find a teacher also. It's hard for me to take people too seriously, including myself. It's bit of a bind sometimes...
Can you elaborate? ppl who dont take themselves/things too seriously are often open minded humouros ppl. but it can also mean indifference, not 'inspired" etc

but ppl who are too serious are "serious" when its not called for seeing everything according to their churning emotional conflicts which are then projected unto anything under the sun in their lives, the most dangerous one of all their religion.

I can relate to taking myself not seriously at all lol but I take teachers very seriously, not meaning the words they utter perse but the direction and function of it.

But in order to find a suitable teacher one needs to be serious about the "great matter" I think, otherwise having a teacher-student relationship might be pretty useless to begin with.
Hmmm, good questions. I don't know if I can give a satisfactory answer in writing, but I'll have a go. Luckily I'm a bit sick and staying home tonight :-)

I've been intensely interested in why we are as crazy as we are for 20+ years now. And I've learned a lot, in Buddhist and other fields. I can see things Buddhist teachers can't see, because my training was different. That's a bit of a problem.

I have a problem with authority, that's also a problem.

One of the things I learned about "important" stuff though, is that if you go about it too seriously , you mess it up. IMHO you really need to learn to be as a child again to enter the kingdom of God. But consciously. And I'm also convinced that also means you need to get rid of most of the tension our society instills on people in their way to adulthood. And that's not an easy task, because a lot of the conditioning is invisible. It's an interesting conundrum, and it does require of you not to be indifferent if you want to get to explore that :-)

And after all that work of the last 20 years my personality is still full of flaws I really wish I would have gotten rid of . But since I see that in everyone, so I guess that's one of the wonderful jokes of reality. Perfection is not what you think it is. Oh joy, there's nothing to be done after all! :109:

About the "great matter", I'm going to appeal to authority because I'm a lousy writer:

In general, work and effort by themselves create opposition.
If you practice, you stir up all sorts of pains and discomforts.
If you don’t practice, you don’t see what you are and wander in confusion.
In either case, you lose touch with what is straightforward and natural.

Wonder of wonders!

Because these errors stop you from going beyond ordinary experience,
Be clear that the approach of practice versus not practice
Relies on an artificial distinction.
Without trying to reshape it in any way, Rest in what you experience right now.

When you give up your reactive checking,
Managing and goal-seeking —all of it —
There is a direct knowing, open and free.
Stop changing or altering it. Rest right there.


Well, that was more rambling than I intended, but I hope you sort of get my point.

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fuki
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 pm

Thanks for sharing your observations orangezilla so thanks for being sick! :lol: (I've been in bed with a fever for 4 days now)

How in your experience is a teacher an authority? I see it as a relationship ofcourse a teacher is an "authority" in a way that one has faith in his practise instructions and you follow them, but no authority in a sense which tells me when to brush my teeth and to wipe my butt so not sure that I follow.

And how is it a problem that you see things they dont? I often see things they (or whoever) dont and vice versa this is how relationships work right? (without the attachment that is) I cant speak for you but I noticed that whatever I make of any relationship is but a construct of mind so I just notice it and return to "non-dwelling" like mopping the floor or whatever as an expression of my buddha-nature (no beginning to mopping, no end to mopping, just mopping) no problem :lol:
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fuki
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by fuki » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:50 pm

ps fruity if it's about hierarchy instead of "authority" check out Maha Karuna Ch'an :)
https://mahakarunachan.nl/

I think it's as "liberal" as it gets, it would make Jundo look like a member of the tea party!
Just kidding Jundo.
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by Fruitzilla » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:56 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 pm
Thanks for sharing your observations orangezilla so thanks for being sick! :lol: (I've been in bed with a fever for 4 days now)

How in your experience is a teacher an authority? I see it as a relationship ofcourse a teacher is an "authority" in a way that one has faith in his practise instructions and you follow them, but no authority in a sense which tells me when to brush my teeth and to wipe my butt so not sure that I follow.

And how is it a problem that you see things they dont? I often see things they (or whoever) dont and vice versa this is how relationships work right? (without the attachment that is) I cant speak for you but I noticed that whatever I make of any relationship is but a construct of mind so I just notice it and return to "non-dwelling" like mopping the floor or whatever as an expression of my buddha-nature (no beginning to mopping, no end to mopping, just mopping) no problem :lol:
I've been trying to answer your post, but so far, nothing sensible has come up. Will mull it over in the weekend, hopefully something comes up! :-)

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fuki
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by fuki » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:17 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:56 pm
I've been trying to answer your post, but so far, nothing sensible has come up. Will mull it over in the weekend, hopefully something comes up! :-)
I'll radically drop any expectation or demand that something should come up, and all judgments of supposed to. :lol:

Well I sincerely hope that nothing "comes up" that would mean you're still sick :lol:

Image
:lol:

lekker melig weer :mrgreen:
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Re: Seeking Buddha, Non-Seeking Buddha

Post by Fruitzilla » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:34 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:17 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:56 pm
I've been trying to answer your post, but so far, nothing sensible has come up. Will mull it over in the weekend, hopefully something comes up! :-)
I'll radically drop any expectation or demand that something should come up, and all judgments of supposed to. :lol:

Well I sincerely hope that nothing "comes up" that would mean you're still sick :lol:

Image
:lol:

lekker melig weer :mrgreen:
It's ony words, no worries!

Niet al te melig, dan komt er wel wat uit... :100:

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