Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Thu May 31, 2018 1:07 pm

I reflected on some of Joe's comments today ...
A runny-nose does not mean that the nose must be treated. One's tissues must simply be cleared of the rhinovirus
Shikantaza is more in the way of realizing that there is no nose upon which the rhinovirus can alight. Now, tweek that nose.

People who have been pursuing practices to attain some deep Samadhi concentration (likely a Hindu encroachment on later Buddhism according to many historians) or Koan introspection for a Kensho non-experience (I am reading today a Vietnamese RInzai teacher who describes this as a Song dynasty invention) or some other goal or attainment oriented practice (although people will deny that is what they are undertaking) have difficulty to wrap their heads around radical non-attaining and the instantaneous sitting of Shikantaza as Buddha sitting merely by crossing the legs.

I also will say that I do believe that Shikantaza is a nearly universal cure for Dukkha, absent physical or mental disability that prevents undertaking the practice (and, granted, some people cannot get the hang of it even without disability, like some people cannot get the hang of ice skating or swimming just because some people can't). Human beings these days need to learn to drop their desire and dissatisfaction into the Wholeness and Completion of Just Sitting. People do not know how to stop chasing, wishing to attain, needing to change and, unfortunately, many of our goal oriented Buddhist practices feed right into the dis-Ease. The greed, anger and divided thinking in ignorance are, themselves, the frustration and symptoms of the need to chase, attain, change. Unfortunately, too often Shikantaza is taught, not as radical "Just Sitting," but as just sitting around and breathing, biding one's time.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu May 31, 2018 3:20 pm

Ohayo,
jundocohen wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:07 pm
I reflected on some of Joe's comments today ...
joe wrote:A runny-nose does not mean that the nose must be treated. One's tissues must simply be cleared of the rhinovirus
Shikantaza is more in the way of realizing that there is no nose upon which the rhinovirus can alight. Now, tweek that nose.
Yes, Jundo, I'd join you in singing praises of shikantaza. It is my practice for nigh-onto 40 (39: a Jack Benny's-age) years.

But, I did not comment on shikantaza. I commented on your claim that "the modern disease" is consumerism and the distractability of people's attention. I disagreed with that claim. That's not the disease. I claimed, instead, that those lamentable behaviors are Symptoms.

I think we can agree on what is the real disease. Well, 25 centuries ago, the Buddha pointed it out, and he's had many supporters since, if we still need a refresher-clue.

My comments today are just to clarify for all readers the actual history of the content of our conversation so far, Jundo. That's done, now.

Regarding shikantaza, I have no doubt and I have full (experiential) faith that it gets at the actual disease, and does not merely treat symptoms. I also feel that this is true of all the practices of Ch'an-, Zen-, Seon-, and Thien-Buddhism. Our school is one that gets at the root, and does not treat the leaves and branches. That's uniform throughout.

And, again regarding shikantaza, one can indeed awaken to one's original nature by association with this practice. And, if one has already awakened by association with other means -- as happened in Zen Master Dogen's personal practice-history, for example -- then, while awake, it is particularly "easy" and natural to practice this "shikantaza" ...as, not to be disingenuous, it is then the only game in town. Hail!

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu May 31, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 am

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by KeithA » Thu May 31, 2018 3:31 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:57 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:03 pm
This is funny. It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George is insisting that he Jerry stick to the idea of pitching a show "about nothing". :108:

One moment of shikantanza

One moment of "what is this?"

One moment of "Om"

One moment of following the breath

One moment of repeating the Jesus prayer

On and on...

Only silly humans would make a distinction.

_/|\_
Ah, but here is the difference in the sameness. When sitting Shikantaza, only Shikantaza is the universe. Shikantaza is "What is this" is "Om" is Jesus sitting. Shikantaza is the Completion which is every Koan asked and answered, case closed.

It is the cure for all the many kinds of Zen meditation trying to get something, be it bliss or Kensho or just to chill.

Gassho, Jundo
Maybe so, maybe so...
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 am

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by KeithA » Thu May 31, 2018 3:40 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:41 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:03 pm

Only silly humans would make a distinction.

_/|\_
:)

What about the difference between believing and "recieving", another contrivance?
Not sure I understand your meaning. But in the end, it's all a contrivance, isn't it?

We had a discussion a couple weeks at practice. One person made the point about it being typical in Western thinking to see everything as opposites (good/bad, higher/lower, light/dark, etc.) In contrast to that style of thinking, he talked about yin/yang and how it's about thinking in terms of things being complementary.

Imho, the various techniques are complementary, not higher or lower or even very different, for that matter. But, we are in the Soto forum, so I should just bow out and leave Jundo Cohen alone with his fantasies. :waving:
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu May 31, 2018 3:49 pm

Just a note!:

A Christian-Buddhist poet (Mariquita Platov) whom I liked, had a line, to wit:

"Where, but for sameness, would distinctions be?"

She (1905-2000) was a piece of work; her little book, From the Herb Garden of a Christian-Buddhist is a tiny gem (Pub. by the Cambridge [MA; USA] Buddhist Association, 1973). I found this hand-made book "used" in a bookstore in my neighborhood in NY for 10c, in 1975.

(She has other books of verse, besides).

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu May 31, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Thu May 31, 2018 4:02 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:20 pm

But, I did not comment on shikantaza. I commented on your claim that "the modern disease" is consumerism and the distractability of people's attention. I disagreed with that claim. That's not the disease. I claimed, instead, that those lamentable behaviors are Symptoms.

I think we can agree on what is the real disease. Well, 25 centuries ago, the Buddha pointed it out ...
I see your point now. Yes, that seems right.

So, I guess that Shikantaza also cures the common cold!

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu May 31, 2018 4:10 pm

Hiya,
jundocohen wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 4:02 pm
I see your point now. Yes, that seems right.
Glad we can see eye-to-eye! Thanks for having a re-look.
jundo wrote:So, I guess that Shikantaza also cures the common cold!
Let's just not get a sore-throat saying so. :P
_/\_ ,

Truly yours,

--Joe

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Thu May 31, 2018 6:59 pm

KeithA wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:40 pm

Not sure I understand your meaning. But in the end, it's all a contrivance, isn't it?
Yes :)
We had a discussion a couple weeks at practice. One person made the point about it being typical in Western thinking to see everything as opposites (good/bad, higher/lower, light/dark, etc.) In contrast to that style of thinking, he talked about yin/yang and how it's about thinking in terms of things being complementary.

Imho, the various techniques are complementary, not higher or lower or even very different, for that matter.
And I'll add that they're consequences not means. :)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu May 31, 2018 7:00 pm

Jundo,
jundocohen wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:07 pm
Human beings these days need to learn to drop their desire and dissatisfaction into the Wholeness and Completion of Just Sitting. People do not know how to stop chasing, wishing to attain, needing to change and, unfortunately, many of our goal oriented Buddhist practices feed right into the dis-Ease.
In these times, in "modern" countries -- and, for a long time! -- there has been an atmosphere of Scientific Materialism as a primary background of all experience, I think even eclipsing the primary hold on people that traditional Western religions once exercised.

Shall I say(?) ...that people are "trained" by this scientific emphasis "to test", "to experiment", "to confirm", "to dis-confirm", which are all ACTIVE pursuits, active participations, active investigations. All this testing and inquiring rules-out "just-" anything, most of all "just-sitting" (as some people call it).

What I'm getting-at, Jundo, is that it's not "PEOPLE". It's not "people" who have these inabilities which you claim (and I agree, with reservations) disable them by default from settling-down into original nature, and original wonderful Mind. It's not PEOPLE!: It's training, and habituated training, and it's the ethos of current culture. "PEOPLE" are largely innocent, and are 'merely' victimized.

Let's cut "PEOPLE" a break. And ourselves.

We're cooked in a stew of Materialistic Science. And so many of our reflex actions and responses are simmered-into and arise from that same stew. These conditioned actions and responses come with the hot meal. No extra charge. So let's cut "PEOPLE" a break.

The question (and compassionate action) then becomes: how to help PEOPLE effectively ignore their prior training? Well, it's impossible (just accept that for a moment... ).

Thus, "one" may compassionately offer an antidote to the cultural and personal poisoning (it's not necessarily shikantaza! Stay with me, please).

I think that all schools of Zen Buddhist practice do this "offering of antidotes", skillfully and expediently. And the antidotes are tried-and-true, and have been continuously updated and tweaked by nimble, compassionate geniuses who have been and who are lineage-holders. You're doing this too, in our time, using even high-tech tools and media (hats off; Glad to see).

Here's where we differ slightly, I'd say (you may see it distinctly differently): I believe (...I've seen it operate this way successfully) that people, as practitioners, or practitioner-wannabees, can be given methods that will, on sincere adoption and practicing, produce an opening. THEN, people can sit shikantaza (they'll have no choice, at first, while awakening lasts, actually). Having "once" done that, and experienced shikantaza, faith in shikantaza will be unshakeable (even if easy and ready access to it becomes more unsteady, as awakening fades). But they may also see that shikantaza is the nourishment and maintenance that enables the healthy state of awakening to persist. Contact with one's teacher will of course help in this and all other phases.

I agree with some people here and elsewhere who claim baldly or boldly that newcomers "cannot 'do' shikantaza". Well, maybe some Soto teachers agree, there, and offer students some practices involving the breathing, at first.

Maybe newcomer students who are like the proverbial and noble "horses who bolt even at the mere shadow of the whip" are the ones prepared or primed to take up or take-on shikantaza as an initial practice. For the others, teachers may make other suggestions (leading up, or down, eventually to shikantaza).

Wisdom and Compassion will win-out. Shikantaza is fine. Other methods, which are more "methods" and not results, have a good track-record. Dogen used one such, or several, to lead to his "body and mind fallen away" condition with his teacher Rujing, in China.

I would hope that the way of Soto Zen is a widely Compassionate and Wise way, and not narrow. That is, I would hope that it has not fallen-into and will not devolve in the West into "mere Dogen-ism". Doggone!, I think it's better than that.

These are my considered views, formed over decades. Subject to change.

There may be more to discuss here, but I've expressed what I've wanted and needed to, as exposition.

Apologies!, the longish post. But if you've followed this, you know my true heart.

Continued copious Blessings,

--Joe

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:33 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 7:00 pm

In these times, in "modern" countries -- and, for a long time! -- there has been an atmosphere of Scientific Materialism as a primary background of all experience, I think even eclipsing the primary hold on people that traditional Western religions once exercised.
Oh, I so much agree. People are victims of their inner greed, anger and ignorance, a clutching spurred on by the materialism (in the meaning of concern primarily for material possessions and personal gains and achievements) and consumerism of our culture. I also reject "scientism" (a naive belief that science alone has all the answers, and that the world is little more than a cold, dark, rather meaningless material place. Science can tell you about the biology of the flower and the human eye, but not the wonder of beholding the twirling flower).

However. rejecting "scientific materialism" is no excuse to return to the superstition, pseudo-science, myth posing as history, exaggerated miracle stories and other spurious claims that infect so many aspects of Buddhism just as other religions. I say "return," but in fact, so many have never left. That is its own kind of ignorance. (Of course, eye of the beholder, and one person's "baseless myth" should be honored as another person's "sacred truth.") It is possible to have a sense of wonder, of the sacred and flowing wholeness of this life without resorting to that kind of naivety as well.
Here's where we differ slightly, I'd say (you may see it distinctly differently): I believe (...I've seen it operate this way successfully) that people, as practitioners, or practitioner-wannabees, can be given methods that will, on sincere adoption and practicing, produce an opening. THEN, people can sit shikantaza (they'll have no choice, at first, while awakening lasts, actually). Having "once" done that, and experienced shikantaza, faith in shikantaza will be unshakeable (even if easy and ready access to it becomes more unsteady, as awakening fades).
Kensho is to be treasured in all paths. It is simply a "cart before the horse, horse before the cart" argument. One can experience an opening and then practice Shikantaza, or rest thoroughly in the wholeness and completion of Shikantaza and "non-slip" right in-lessly in to endless openings. It may depend on the personality type, but I believe that it is easier to teach people the latter way, and not so hard for folks to get the hang of radically stopping and being that opens the gateless gate right up. As in the OP, the theory behind it is not hard to explain, and the practice very simple (although powerful). I also feel that much of Buddhism in general, and Zen in particular, unwittingly still feeds in to spiritual materialism, the "get, achieve, become" mentality that turns our practices into their own kind of consumerism.

I have had little problem in instructing ordinary people (although not everyone) what it means to radically halt the running and clutching.

Dogen wrote this about the cart and the horse (ox actually), his comment on what comes first and what come later, the order of cause and effect ...
Nangaku says, “When a person is driving a cart, if the cart does not move, is it right to prod the cart, or is it right to prod the ox?”

[Dogen Comment:] Now, when he says, “if the cart does not move,” what is a cart moving and what is a cart not moving? For example, is water flowing [next to the cart] the cart moving? Is water not flowing the cart moving? We can say that flowing is water not moving. And it may also be that water moving is beyond “flowing.” Thus, when we investigate the words, “if the cart does not move,” we may find that there is “not moving,” and we may find that there is no “not moving” because it is time. The words “if it does not move” are not saying only that it does not move. ...

Can there be both prodding the cart and prodding the ox? Are prodding the cart and prodding the ox the same or not the same? In the common world, there is no method of prodding the cart. Although ordinary people have no method of prodding the cart, we see that in the way of Buddha there is a method of prodding the cart. Such method is the very eye of learning in Practice. And although we learn that there is a method of prodding the cart, it cannot be the same as prodding the ox. We should consider this point in detail. Even though the method of prodding the ox exists in the common world, we should go on to investigate and learn the Practice of prodding the ox in the way of Buddha. (from Zazenshin)
Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:12 am

Thanks, Jundo, I appreciate the give-and-take here, the open exchange.
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:33 am
Kensho is to be treasured in all paths. It is simply a "cart before the horse, horse before the cart" argument. One can experience an opening and then practice Shikantaza, or rest thoroughly in the wholeness and completion of Shikantaza and "non-slip" right in-lessly in to endless openings.
But... in the context of the Scientific Materialism that seems in everyone's genes of late (500 years?), I thought that it was agreed that it is hard to get people to "sit still" for shikantaza. Isn't that what we determined? And this is why I suggested that, in the face of people's wanting to "DO" something, we'd let them "wear themselves out" with something harmless, so that an opening could then come on, and then they would be able to see, and to remember ever afterwards, the naturalness and wisdom of the fact of the equivalence of Practice, and Awakening to original mind or original nature, quite as Dogen Zenji taught.

So, therefore, I'm certain that there is not an equality of "cart before the horse" and "horse before the cart". That is, if discernment is used, and people are seen-through, it ought to be clear that one relation of horse and cart is to be weighted more heavily, I'd say, in most populations on Earth at present. And that relation, I'd say, is "kensho before shikantaza". It just suits the times. Sure, there will be outliers, and they are the lucky ones. Not everyone is so lucky, and I think very few are.

This means that, yes, there is a place for shikantaza, for the majority. But, it's a matter of when. I would not start people on it unless, well, unless in face-to-face meeting with them it was clear it would be suitable for them, and they for "it".
jundo wrote:It may depend on the personality type, but I believe that it is easier to teach people the latter way, and not so hard for folks to get the hang of radically stopping and being that opens the gateless gate right up.
Again, due to the Scientific and "DOING", antsy, world-view, and life-view of so many, it's a real surprise that someone might believe that. Are you sure that your belief is based on empirical experience with People, or is it a holding of Dogen's 13th century teachings in too-high regard?, and the facts of the present-day milieu "be damned"? Sorry, but color me dubious... . And honestly questioning you. Thanks! again,

--Joe

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:28 am

hi, Keith,
KeithA wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:40 pm
But, we are in the Soto forum, so I should just bow out and leave Jundo Cohen alone with his fantasies.
Jundo Roshi's not alone; a few others of us are in here too, doing some grilling, ;) ...even in advance of the weekend. In good faith!, as you know, Jundo!, and in good spirits and humor. :hatsoff:

:namaste:

--Joe

g_hum_303.jpg
(we'll be "looking at" 108 deg here on Sunday, at 2450 feet)
.
g_hum_303.jpg (11.07 KiB) Viewed 620 times

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:39 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:28 am
hi, Keith,

Jundo Roshi's not alone; a few others of us are in here too, doing some grilling, ;) ...even in advance of the weekend. In good faith!, as you know, Jundo!, and in good spirits and humor. :hatsoff:

--Joe
Like Keith (or it is my imagination, sorry Keith) I also sense a perpetual underlying tendency of sectarianism in Jundo's posts. Might be my imagination due to past posts from Jundo but I'm not even going to debate about whether this sensing is accurate or not. I'm a dog person but cats are fine for cat folks.... not saying dogs are better though *cough* :P

A dog fanatic shouldnt have to mention cats at all right to share his love for dogs?
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:44 pm

Some people say
ferrets
are where it's
at.

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:47 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:39 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:28 am
hi, Keith,

Jundo Roshi's not alone; a few others of us are in here too, doing some grilling, ;) ...even in advance of the weekend. In good faith!, as you know, Jundo!, and in good spirits and humor. :hatsoff:

--Joe
Like Keith (or it is my imagination, sorry Keith) I also sense a perpetual underlying tendency of sectarianism in Jundo's posts. Might be my imagination due to past posts from Jundo but I'm not even going to debate about whether this sensing is accurate or not. I'm a dog person but cats are fine for cat folks.... not saying dogs are better though *cough* :P

A dog fanatic shouldnt have to mention cats at all right to share his love for dogs?
Of course there is "sectarianism" in my posts! This is the Soto section, expressing Soto Practices and perspectives for folks interested in Soto ways. Of course, I think that those ways have their own wisdom and strengths unique to those ways (likewise for otherwise I suppose). What is so wrong with that? When a baseball fan, talk and play baseball. Of course, I feel that Soto ways are better, especially for folks for whom Soto ways are better. I feel that Soto has some unique aspects very much unique, and sorely needed.

Gassho, Jundo
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:54 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:47 pm

Of course there is "sectarianism" in my posts! This is the Soto section, expressing Soto Practices and perspectives for folks interested in Soto ways. Of course, I think that those ways have their own wisdom and strengths unique to those ways (likewise for otherwise I suppose). What is so wrong with that? When a baseball fan, talk and play baseball. I feel that Soto has some unique aspects very much unique, and sorely needed.

Gassho, Jundo
Hi Jundo,
not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it will vexate people, nothing wrong with that too. It happens in any relationship and on a forum we're "married" with a lot of folks. ;)

ps vexating is a general observation, not talking about keith or me. Well I used to experience vexations with your writings, for which I thank you for exposing.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 1009
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:11 pm

Ohayo, Jundo,
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:47 pm
Of course, I feel that Soto ways are better, especially for folks for whom Soto ways are better. I feel that Soto has some unique aspects very much unique, and sorely needed.
I agree. As always, it's the face-to-face aspects that I appreciate most, both with the teacher and with the sangha.
jundo wrote:When a baseball fan, talk and play baseball.
Thing about baseball is, ...there are statistics. Players don't get hired just because a scout feels they are "better": there's numeration involved, and weighing against alternatives in order to make a judicious selection, decision, and commitment.

As I think you pointed out yesterday, Jundo, there's nobody keeping statistics on kensho, quality-of-life, measures of True Compassion extended, nor True Wisdom, etc., in the sects. Granted, some of those are harder to quantify than others.

What this comes down to, meanwhile, is that a claim of "better" is guesswork. There's nothing made publicly-observable to back it up, for the innocent public. So, trust me, when Jundo says "better" anywhere, he might as well be saying, "Chocolate", or "Vanilla". Umm. Now, isn't that "better"?

But of course where you say better is for those for whom it is better, there can be absolutely no fault in that tautology (but I appreciate the spirit and actual subtlety of it).

Full disclosure, ...I am in a Soto sangha nowadays, with Soto sensei, and all's well. Still early-days, four years on, now.

Although I think I had little to do with their demise, I'd buried two Zen teachers who had predeceased me, and my current teacher says he'll "take that under advisement". :) You might have met him at one of the Mind and Life conferences, dunno.

In gassho,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:16 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:11 pm

Full disclosure, ...I am in a Soto sangha now, with Soto sensei, and all's well. Still early-days, four years on, now. Although I think I had little to do with their demise, I'd buried two Zen teachers who have predeceased me, and my current teacher says he'll "take that under advisement". :) You might have met him at one of the Mind and Life conferences, dunno.

In gassho,

--Joe
Joe, in the 1st interview I had with the current local sangha teacher I asked her in which tradition she received inka she couldn't remember and asked someone else in the room. A good sign ;)

ps I played some baseball in school, the batting teacher told me where to look and how to swing in order to hit the ball most efficiently, he never mentioned teachers from another school and how his training was complete, or boundless or unlike any other way, we just followed instructions and hit the ball (or missed)

I also had badminton and table tennis lessons, I always won against the teacher who had decades of experience, he didnt like it. Samadhi eh ;)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Caodemarte
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:54 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:16 pm
...Joe, in the 1st interview I had with the current local sangha teacher I asked her in which tradition she received inka she couldn't remember and asked someone else in the room. A good sign ;)....
Unless that was a joke by her, I would not consider it a good sign.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:07 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:54 pm

Unless that was a joke by her, I would not consider it a good sign.
No joke. :)

It's ok to forget, I always forget it's Buddhism, if someone would count my eyelashes and tell me the nr of hairs I'd forget about that too. :P

Do you remember the name of the swimming pool where you received your school swimming diplomas? I dont, would be allright to remember but to forget as well.
Memory has its function but the natural state is that which cannot be remembered or forgotten or grasped, so my teachers memory or knowledge has only functional purpose, for me it's a good sign, and good for a laugh! I don't care much for teaching from the book whether it's rinzai or soto or whatever, it's only a name.
Last edited by fuki on Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Post Reply