Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

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lindama
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by lindama » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:17 pm

well, then there is just cooking

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:26 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:17 pm
well, then there is just cooking
Mix until homogeneous :lol:

Or just forget the (superfluous) ingredients and eat. :)
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by KeithA » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:52 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:39 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:28 am
hi, Keith,

Jundo Roshi's not alone; a few others of us are in here too, doing some grilling, ;) ...even in advance of the weekend. In good faith!, as you know, Jundo!, and in good spirits and humor. :hatsoff:

--Joe
Like Keith (or it is my imagination, sorry Keith) I also sense a perpetual underlying tendency of sectarianism in Jundo's posts. Might be my imagination due to past posts from Jundo but I'm not even going to debate about whether this sensing is accurate or not. I'm a dog person but cats are fine for cat folks.... not saying dogs are better though *cough* :P

A dog fanatic shouldnt have to mention cats at all right to share his love for dogs?
This was one of those instances when silence was the infinitely better choice than popping off. This topic is the same old boring nonsense, designed to provoke, and I should have not waded in. I won't post in the topic anymore and will not bother to engage Jundo Cohen going forward. I am sure we would get along famously across the tea table, but in the internet world, I find him insufferable and put him on my ignore list, so I won't be tempted to react incorrectly in the future.

Of course, none of this J.'s problem and is entirely my problem and my deficiency. It is beneficial to look at one's own bs, and J. has provided me a chance to do just that. For that I am grateful. :waving:

Dae Ja, Da Bi (Great Love, Great Compassion)
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:09 pm

(disclaimer: the following is just a bit of fun. And, sincere)

Keith, it's dawning now that Jundo is really a Rinzai fellow masquerading all this little bit of time as "Soto".

We can see this in his methods!

Don't let him fool us, and let's just deftly duck the swipes of his hockey stick; he handles that stick quite punctiliously even over the 'net, why, even quite a little bit like the old Lin Chi himself!: Compassion-personified... .

Just don't yield to any implicit or actual "30 blows"; no one here is "at-fault". Rest assured! (IMO... ).

Happy New Month, and w/ cheers and wishes for the weekend,

--Joe

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:09 pm
(disclaimer:
I'll have tea/coffee with anyone on this forum.
ps milk, no sugar.
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:07 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm
...I'll have tea/coffee with anyone on this forum.
ps milk, no sugar.
I like tea with sugar, no milk. But I still hope you will have tea with me! It is the same whatever we add to it.

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:29 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:07 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm
...I'll have tea/coffee with anyone on this forum.
ps milk, no sugar.
I like tea with sugar, no milk. But I still hope you will have tea with me! It is the same whatever we add to it.
Now you make me want to go swimming in the Ocean with everyone, eventhough there are no fish. :D
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by lindama » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:06 am

no mixing needed... one taste
fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:26 pm
lindama wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:17 pm
well, then there is just cooking
Mix until homogeneous :lol:

Or just forget the (superfluous) ingredients and eat. :)

ol' spikey

Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by ol' spikey » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:29 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:44 pm

Practitioners -- and their teachers -- will decide, however, which practice is appropriate and efficacious for which time, or epoch (as Dogen's Ch'an-teacher did, for that Japanese pilgrim). It can't be prescribed from a distance, to strangers: That would be "mal-practice".

"It can't be prescribed from a distance"
Believe so.
jundocohen wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:58 pm
Well, I will disagree a little. . .
So, I believe that any Practice which teaches how to drop the hunger, and to be fully present in the completion of this moment of the universe, is of nearly universal benefit to such modern people.
Well, for some, that would be based on measured success rate, but moreso, perhaps, on the inspired sincerity of modern people's effort.
jundocohen wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:58 pm
By the way, there is NO evidence whatsoever that all the "in person" teachers of the present of the past have been so wonderful in prescribing custom made practices to students.
Likewise, zero valid, reliable, reviewed studies that virtual teachers have.

It is certainly a reach, and maybe a tad egotistical, to pin failure on rival(?) in-person teachers because not "all" of them have always been as successful ("wonderful") as you aver they should be.
jundocohen wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:58 pm
Zen teachers have generally been terrible at teaching Zen.
Speaks for itself! Meido, Guo Go, Genjo can respond.
jundocohen wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:58 pm

(Frankly, online, I have more regular and intimate interaction with students than many a western Zen Sangha where people show up once a week or so, sit silently most of the time, maybe have a quick interview and head home.)
Just self-serving opinion selling Treeleaf, and a smear to hard-trying right-minded sanghas to boot.

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:30 am

Hi,
fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:16 pm
Joe, in the 1st interview I had with the current local sangha teacher I asked her in which tradition she received inka she couldn't remember and asked someone else in the room. A good sign
I also can't remember the source of "my" Transmission. It is every Lineage and no Lineage, and the Buddha(s)' Lineage(s) are boundless. That being said, I am a Soto Zen Priest teaching Soto Zen Ways in the Soto Zen corner of this little forum, Dharma Descendant of Gudo Nishijima, Rempo Niwa Abbot of Eiheiji, Dogen, Huineng, Bodhidharma and Buddha. (That, and $1, gets me a black coffee at McDonalds, plus a cool Fly Whisk I get to carry).

Maybe Meido should take the word "Rinzai" out of his book title? :103:

Shikantaza is the superior, superlative, best way of Zazen, better than any other ... for me and for those for whom it is the superior, superlative, best way of Zazen, better than any other. For other people, some other way of Zen Practice, Buddhism or other religion (or no religion altogether) may by the superior, superlative, best way, better than any other. For those people, Shikantaza may be a bad way. Shikantaza is "Complete, Boundless and Unlike All Else Period End of Story" in just the same way that every mountain and grain of sand is "Complete, Boundless and Unlike All Else Period End of Story. "

However, when we sit Shikantaza, one sits as all the universe pouring into and from every mountain and grain of sand. Understand?

(I have marked in italics the later part of what I wrote for the benefit of KeithA, whose reading attention might wane after a few words, and who sometimes seems to miss the not-so-subtlety of what I say. That is the 1 page executive summary. I don't want him to be back here again accusing me of "denigrating Koan practice" or the like as he seems to do once or twice a week. Thank you. Keith has written:

Of course, none of this J.'s problem and is entirely my problem and my deficiency. It is beneficial to look at one's own bs, and J. has provided me a chance to do just that.

Yes, we can agree on that. You are welcome.)
desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:11 pm
Thing about baseball is, ...there are statistics. Players don't get hired just because a scout feels they are "better": there's numeration involved, and weighing against alternatives in order to make a judicious selection, decision, and commitment.

As I think you pointed out yesterday, Jundo, there's nobody keeping statistics on kensho, quality-of-life, measures of True Compassion extended, nor True Wisdom, etc., in the sects. Granted, some of those are harder to quantify than others.
Exactly right. In fact, trying to compare Soto and Rinzai ways may be like trying to compare baseball and football. Statistics are impossible, except to say that they are both wonderful sports played under the same boundless sky, suited to various players. Many more home runs in baseball, a monopoly on touchdowns in football.

I will say, however, that some statistical evidence may allow us to draw some conclusions about efficacy. I can definitely say that almost of the kids coming out of my son's swimming school do learn to swim 100 meters. Some of the kids coming out of my daughter's piano class do learn to play piano (perhaps most do not, as they do not stick with it long enough, and it is fairly easy to tell which kids have a better musical ear than others). I think that we can make a good case, looking around, that Zen has had a generally positive effect on many people, but we are not doing a very good job on really delivering. Most Zen groups are still meeting and sitting in the same tiny rooms where they have been for how many years, and the Zafu makers are not having trouble to keep up with demand. Shopping malls are not being torn down to build Zen centers. Sorry, I have met so-many-hundreds of monks who have come out of Japanese and Western monasteries, and the lay members of so many Zen groups and, well, I will stick with my assertion about how "enlightened" folks are. It does have a generally positive effect, however, and there are so many truly wise, compassionate and beautiful people in the Zen world that I would call "enlightened" ... and there are so many (apart from the sexual/psychological abusers and predators, and the sometime hacks and quacks) hundreds of " hard-trying right-minded" sanghas and teachers who are giving their all, doing their best with wise and gifted hearts and endless energy (unfortunately, they get far less headlines than the spiritual rapists and cultists and such) ...

... but I still believe that we (me too) can do better in delivering this beautiful Way.

At the same time, we should also avoid "cafeteria spirituality" which just throws in a bunch of new age claptrap, or picks from the dessert counter of Buddhism while avoiding the veggies. There is a middle way here.

I happen to believe that, for many people, many aspects of Zen and of all Buddhism (from traditional forms to modern "mindfulness") are feeding in to the same "get, achieve, become" mentality that turns our practices into their own kind of consumerism. Enlightenment becomes another prize. I advocate (because I am a Soto teacher introducing Soto ways in this Soto corner of this place) that perhaps the "radical non-getting, non-achieving, non-becoming" of Shikantaza (which is, in itself, a getting and achieving of enlightenment in the very Peace, Stillness, Wholeness and Satisfaction of a Buddha) might be the right medicine for this dis-Ease among many people (Note for Keith, if he has read and kept his attention this far: maybe other people could benefit from other medicines).

I am a sectarian and proud of it (in a humble Buddhist way, of course). Swimming teachers teach swimming, piano teachers teach piano.

Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by jundocohen on Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by boda » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:09 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:30 am
Most Zen groups are still meeting and sitting in the same tiny rooms where they have been for how many years, and the Zafu makers are not having trouble to keep up with demand.
How big of a room do we need to sit in? Isn’t one Zafu enough?
there are so many (apart from the sexual/psychological abusers and predators, and the sometime hacks and quacks) hundreds of " hard-trying right-minded" sanghas and teachers who are giving their all, doing their best with wise and gifted hearts and endless energy (unfortunately, they get far less headlines than the spiritual rapists and cultists and such) ...
This may sound like an odd question to you but why do you think they want to be in the headlines?
At the same time, we should also avoid "cafeteria spirituality" which just throws in a bunch of new age claptrap, or picks from the dessert counter of Buddhism while avoiding the veggies. There is a middle way here.
Can you name a group that does this. So we know to avoid them of course.
I happen to believe that, for many people, many aspects of Zen and of all Buddhism (from traditional forms to modern "mindfulness") are feeding in to the same "get, achieve, become" mentality that turns our practices into their own kind of consumerism. Enlightenment becomes another prize. I advocate (because I am a Soto teacher introducing Soto ways in this Soto corner of this place) that perhaps the "radical non-getting, non-achieving, non-becoming" of Shikantaza (which is, in itself, a getting and achieving of enlightenment in the very Peace, Stillness, Wholeness and Satisfaction of a Buddha) might be the right medicine for this dis-Ease among many people
There’s no reason shikantaza is any more immune to “consumerism”? than any other Buddhist practice.
I am sectarian and proud of it
Seriously? Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group.

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:01 am

According to the dictionary definition I am a "sectarian," which is not the same as "sectarianism." Sorry for the confusion.

Let us not confuse the following two words, Bodhi, unless you are just trying to stir the pot and make waves as usual. I am a proud sectarian.

Sectarian - a member of a sect or denoting or concerning a sect or sects.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sectarian

Sectarianism - is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism

Of course, I would never partake of the latter.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - When sitting Shikantaza, there is only one Zafu needed in the whole universe, and one Zafu fills the whole universe. We should do a better job to let people realize so.
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by boda » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:08 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:01 am
According to the dictionary definition I am a "sectarian," which is not the same as "sectarianism." Sorry for the confusion.

Let us not confuse the following two words, Bodhi, unless you are just trying to stir the pot and make waves as usual. I am a proud sectarian.

Sectarian - a member of a sect or denoting or concerning a sect or sects.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sectarian

Sectarianism - is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism

Of course, I would never partake of the latter.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - When sitting Shikantaza, there is only one Zafu needed in the whole universe, and one Zafu fills the whole universe. We should do a better job to let people realize so.
The following is cut and pasted from your link:

sectarian (comparative more sectarian, superlative most sectarian)

1. Of, or relating to a sect.
2. Dogmatic or partisan.
3. Parochial or narrow-minded.
4. Bigoted.

Is this what they call a Freudian slip?

I’m not trying to stir up trouble. This is just a remarkable thing to openly admit to.

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:35 pm

Well... Jundo is a member of the Soto sect. What's so Freudian about that??

Now, in the past I do believe that he's made sectarian statements and you, bodhi, may still believe that he is, but all we have to go on here are words. I suggest you give Jundo the benefit of doubt like members here gave you too when many here perceived you as a troll.

Q: Can a Zen leopard change his spots?
A: Yes, with a little help from his friends!

:559:

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by boda » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:50 pm

I never claimed to be a troll, much less express pride in such an identity.

I’m more than willing to hear what he ‘really’ means, in fact I’m fascinated.

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:58 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:35 pm

Now, in the past I do believe that he's made sectarian statements ...
Never ever have, and never would, nor will you ever find an example. I protest the statement as a character aspersion, Dan.

Folks sometimes confuse criticism of what may be (just possibly/consider the possibility) various traditional beliefs, legends and practices as perhaps based in ahistorical beliefs, pseudo-science or superstition as being "sectarian," but I also add "in one possible view" and "one person's silly myth is another person's sacred story that should be honored." Likewise for my refusal to honor certain "teachers" who did great psychological/sexual harm to many students through misuse of the Dokusan room and the like, whatever else witty and wise they seemed to say. Other folks are free to call someone "Roshi" to their hearts content should they wish, and I honor that right. There are things to sometimes speak up about, and no need for everyone to buy into it or even listen.

It is so very true that, as we see in the American political scene today, certain "true believers" in a myth or image will stick with it (as Mr. Trump said) "even if I shot someone on 5th Avenue." Folks sometimes become upset at any challenge to their dearly held beliefs or heroes, and immediately assume it is some form of bigotry or bias or "fake news." It is a well known psychological reaction in politics, religion and the like called "cognitive dissonance." It is so difficult to have civil, open, fact based discussions of certain topics without someone feeling that their religion or politics is under attack by the forces of evil. Many many examples of that on the Buddhist internet fora.

Although I sometimes dissent and disagree, I never claim to be the last word or always right, and I never fail to honor others who disagree.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ose-voters

http://www.instructionaldesign.org/theo ... issonance/

I simply do not engage in any form of bigotry, never have and never would.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I'm a "Roshi" too. That, and another dollar, gets me a small fries at McD's.

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:37 am

evening, Jundo,

Just a note in passing, on some good and encouraging comments in what you have written above. But I find at least one counterexample hiding in plain sight, and it may be just the sort of thing that you think some people are "misinterpretting", but which others like myself find off-putting and mildly offensive. Let me quote a few things, to wit:
  • jundo wrote:Although I sometimes dissent and disagree, I never claim to be the last word or always right, and I never fail to honor others who disagree.
Now, I will say that this characterization seems counter to the wording of the very title of this thread itself. Let me echo the title here for completeness:
  • "Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story."
Now, the "Period. End of Story" at the end of those claims about Shikantaza "may seem" to readers like a dismissal of the possibility of discussion, or even dismissal and discouragement of the welcomeness of an attempt at it. It sets a poor tone. I would not agree that those ending words are "honoring", I'd say that they are "fightin' words". I'd say, too, that they dishonor the reputation of the practice of Shikantaza; they're not worthy of it.

So, just to say gently, if you do not want to be interpreted as being a disputational and 'stuck-up' sectarian element here, it would be good to avoid the appearance of it.

See perhaps if you or anyone else here agrees with these signs that I have noted. No reply needed, and go ahead and burn this note afterwards.

_/\_ ,

--Joe

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:48 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:37 am
  • "Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story."
Now, the "Period. End of Story" at the end of those claims about Shikantaza "may seem" to readers like a dismissal of the possibility of discussion, or even dismissal and discouragement of the welcomeness of an attempt at it. It sets a poor tone. I would not agree that those ending words are "honoring", I'd say that they are "fightin' words". I'd say, too, that they dishonor the reputation of the practice of Shikantaza; they're not worthy of it.
This is simply because many people cannot read or understand what is expressed repeatedly and clearly in the article itself. It does not say "better than." It says "unique" as well as "complete" and "limitless," in precisely the same way that each grain of sand or mountain is "complete, boundless and unlike any other grain of sand or mountain" in the whole universe. Period, end of story.

Further, one must sit Shikantaza with the conviction that this sitting is complete and boundless, the one action necessary in the whole universe.

After that, one may get up from Shikantaza and eat a cheese sandwich or watch a hockey game, which cheese sandwich or hockey game is complete, boundless and unlike any other sandwich and hockey game in all time and space. Period. End of Story. A moment of Koan Introspection Zazen is (I suppose as an outsider to the tradition) complete, boundless and unlike anything else too.

Your failure to understand this (as I know you are smarter than that) rings false.

I guess someone will think that Trump actually shot someone on 5th Avenue too by being unable or just not wise enough to understand a simple headline (or intentionally pretending not in some cases for purposes of trolling). I am not responsible for somebody's lack of critical reading skills. Here, Trump is talking about shooting people again today:

https://us.cnn.com/2018/06/03/politics/ ... index.html

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundocohen on Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:53 am

Jundo,

OK, we've had our go 'rounds. It's uncouth and insouciant, though, to tell others to feel differently than they do.

Let's see what others may have to say. Like you, I'm just one percent of the potential posting roster to date.

Burn this, too. ;)

--Joe

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Re: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way of Zazen, Period. End of Story.

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:59 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:53 am
Jundo,

OK, we've had our go 'rounds. It's uncouth, though, to tell others to feel differently than they do.

Let's see what others may have to say. Like you, I'm just one percent of the potential posting roster to date.

Burn this, too. ;)

--Joe
I will say this: If Joe or anyone here does not understand why a grain of sand is complete, boundless and unlike any other grain of sand in the whole universe (let alone how it is the whole universe), then they do not understand Zen. Maybe they should come sit Shikantaza

(which I am allowed to say because, gosh, this is the Soto section of this little Forum, and it is okay. If we were to go, for example, to DW and the Nichiren folks were claiming that the Daimoku is "unlike anything else," they are entitled. Just who is engaging in bigotry around here, trying to diminish practices by majority vote?)

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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