“The Rinzai Zen Way”

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fuki
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:16 pm

Finished chapter two.

Never read such a clear description of the Ekayana, this should sever the afflictions of sectarianism once and for all! Thank you.

One question regarding the vehicles of mahayana and "personal enlightenment"

Awakening is never of the person but from the person, whoever awakens, or "whoever disappears" if you will, at that moment their lives are in the service of "others", compassion/love is no longer seperable from "life"

I understand what is meant in Buddhist terminology with "not aspire to aid compassionately" but it goes against fact, or reality If taken literally (which ppl do)

Sorry for nitpicking or do you say it doesn't matter anyway how ppl interpretate "personal" (attainment/enlightenment)
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Meido
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by Meido » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Thanks, Fuki!

The main point of that chapter is just how we can use those kinds of categories - Shravaka, Pratyekabuddha, etc. - in terms of our own practice. Since even after the entrance of awakening there is still quite a lot to do, those categories from the standpoint of practice I described are just for reminding us not to stop short or rest satisfied.

In other words: until we fully actualize the spontaneous/wondrous means to serve others, we rather often find that "compassion not separate from life" is a nice theory...but not something with which we always accord in our own bodies.

That is why I wrote what I did, that hierarchies of vehicles are not for evaluating or correcting others, but ourselves. As I examine myself, I recognize that if I ever have such sticking points, then I have to acknowledge "Today I am the Shravaka, I am the Pratyekabuddha" etc. It's for each person to examine for themselves, practically in terms of what actually is happening day to day (moment to moment) within their own body/speech/mind. And yes, the other point you caught: there are no sects in that :)

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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fuki
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:00 pm

Meido,

ha, only now do I understand my own question!
Funny reminds me of an old friend who said; if you think you understand anything I've been saying, you haven't been paying attention! :)

Thank you, have a better appreciation of the function/relation of that chapter now.
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by lindama » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:01 am

I'll add.... our dear Dharma Brother Gregory had resonance with Ekayana. He spoke of it often, as I recall. touched a chord in me.

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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:10 pm

Chapter 3 was a quicky,

Very kind again Meido concerning the relation between Zen and the Abrahamic faiths, a few days ago I had a talk with mom concerning different religions and its practisioners and also how many "Buddhists" fool themselves with so called "non-dualism" which as far as I can see is just brain food to assert some personal me-story limited by this psycho-physical realm/apparatus and not all different from any fabricated belief system yet with the delusion of studying under a certain "religion" or "tradition" being just another identity fetish.

I sometimes meet practisioners studying 20 years under teachers who couldn't hold a lamp in the shadow of some ppl I know who never practised or read any religion or faith. (including myself) Not saying this to criticise practisioners at all, but as Mark Twain said; “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

I recently had a talk with a Muslim Brother who explained that "jihad" is really about checking oneself, a "holy war" with one's own delusions and ignorance in accordance with "cleansing the vessel" and his prostration practise (to the "allah" within) was basically no different then what at least I see as the function of Buddhist practise.

It's beautiful to meet such people once in a while.

as chapter III opens with this quote;
"Between you and me there is an "I am" that battles me,
so take away, by your grace, this "I am" from in between"
~ Mansur al-Hallaj

Which reminded me of something sri niz said;
"Fluids come together, and the "I am" appears ;)

Thanks again Meido, really enjoying the Spirit of the book so far.
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narhwal90
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:28 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:10 pm

Thanks again Meido, really enjoying the Spirit of the book so far.
Likewise, really enjoying it...

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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:15 am

Finished chapter VI.

Meido, is there any plan to perhaps translate the book in other languages such as German, Dutch, French, Spanish etc?

I ask because this is one of the few books I've read which can be read in a 'non-objective' manner (relation) and is not full of "unnecessary" Buddhist terminology which often at least for 'non-zen' or 'non-religious' ppl is an impediment to the office space. (the imagined head-boss)
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:32 pm

Meido,

chapter VII: Accomplishing Zen through the Body.

Regarding energetic/spiritual force is, are siddhis directly related to the accomplishment through (rinzai) zen practise?

And could you say something how some beings have spontaneous/involuntarely moments in life even prior to any spiritual practise (at young age even) when siddhis are manifested eventhough they have no control/mastery or 'volition' over them.

I've heared they aren't a 'goal' but can occur as fruits, but once they manifest would you have a specific guidance depending on the individual/student for further mastery or is it not part of training.
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by Meido » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:37 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:15 am
Meido, is there any plan to perhaps translate the book in other languages such as German, Dutch, French, Spanish etc?
Fuki, that's up to Shambhala of course. If there's sufficient interest I expect they would. I'd love to see it in German for the use of my students there.
fuki wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:32 pm
Regarding energetic/spiritual force is, are siddhis directly related to the accomplishment through (rinzai) zen practise?
Things happen.

The supreme siddhi - and the only one I'd want to discuss here except in the most general sense - is the wondrous functioning of awakening.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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fuki
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 pm

Thanks Meido.
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by Meido » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:09 pm

NP. Can't write much today, a little rushed for time. But thanks for the chapter-by-chapter review! (and thanks all others as well who've had kind words for the book here...)

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:26 pm

All good Meido, grateful you're here in the first place. :)
It deepens my motivation as others do in here too, and reading the book serves as an catalyst. Hope we all can inspire each other in our practise.
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:03 pm

Finished chapter 8-9 thus part I.

No questions just enjoying how this book is not one-dimensional and thus whoever is reading it from whichever tradition/religion or 'shallowness or depth of experience' will find it to be of service.

Also both chapters remind me of Ramana Maharashi when he said; awakening is not liberation, one must still uproot the vasanas.

Now up to part two: Practise. :)
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by clyde » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:26 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:10 pm
Chapter 3 was a quicky,

Very kind again Meido concerning the relation between Zen and the Abrahamic faiths, a few days ago I had a talk with mom concerning different religions and its practisioners and also how many "Buddhists" fool themselves with so called "non-dualism" which as far as I can see is just brain food to assert some personal me-story limited by this psycho-physical realm/apparatus and not all different from any fabricated belief system yet with the delusion of studying under a certain "religion" or "tradition" being just another identity fetish.

I sometimes meet practisioners studying 20 years under teachers who couldn't hold a lamp in the shadow of some ppl I know who never practised or read any religion or faith. (including myself) Not saying this to criticise practisioners at all, but as Mark Twain said; “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

I recently had a talk with a Muslim Brother who explained that "jihad" is really about checking oneself, a "holy war" with one's own delusions and ignorance in accordance with "cleansing the vessel" and his prostration practise (to the "allah" within) was basically no different then what at least I see as the function of Buddhist practise.

It's beautiful to meet such people once in a while.

as chapter III opens with this quote;
"Between you and me there is an "I am" that battles me,
so take away, by your grace, this "I am" from in between"
~ Mansur al-Hallaj

Which reminded me of something sri niz said;
"Fluids come together, and the "I am" appears ;)

Thanks again Meido, really enjoying the Spirit of the book so far.

I’m late to the party, but (slowly) reading and recently finished Chapter 3.

I noted this:
Though broadly related by evolving theologies and changing cultures, each believer’s supreme, universal God is ultimately that person’s own, created to establish the necessary relationship between individuals upon which Abrahamic faiths depend, and so existing primarily within each mind. [emphasis added]
Yes, this seems so. But isn’t this also so for Buddhists, even Zen Buddhists? What else can it mean to have a “Zen practice”?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by Meido » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:04 pm

Thanks Clyde.

Yes, regardless of how beings may affect and aid one another, certainly awakening and practice take place within the individual mindstreams (or body-minds) of beings. This is an important point, since a common popular misunderstanding of Buddhist teaching holds to a kind of amorphous "oneness."

RE that passage from the text: the Abrahamic concept of a separate all-powerful first-mover, projected outward and asserted to require not only one's own fealty but that of others (else dire consequences), is of course something lacking in Buddhadharma. To say that such a concept is self-created rather than metaphysically real is, naturally, something mainstrean Abrahamic theologies would sharply deny.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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fuki
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:19 pm

Meido wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:04 pm


RE that passage from the text: the Abrahamic concept of a separate all-powerful first-mover, projected outward and asserted to require not only one's own fealty but that of others (else dire consequences), is of course something lacking in Buddhadharma.
What is lacking? Sorry could you rephrase in a bit more simplistic English.
To say that such a concept is self-created rather than metaphysically real is, naturally, something Abrahamic faiths would sharply deny.
Right it's an archetype, an abstracted representation of something which doesn't exist, that's what you are pointing at, right?
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by Meido » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:30 pm

"lacking in Buddhadharma" refers to what comes previously in that sentence, i.e. "the Abrahamic concept of an all powerful first-mover" etc.

What I am primarily pointing out in that bit is that individually created and projected concepts of deity are marked by the qualities, habits, and delusions of the individuals.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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fuki
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:34 pm

Meido wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:30 pm
"lacking in Buddhadharma" refers to what comes previously in that sentence, i.e. "the Abrahamic concept of an all powerful first-mover" etc.

What I am primarily pointing out in that bit is that individually created and projected concepts of deity are marked by the qualities, habits, and delusions of the individuals.

~ Meido
Got it, thanks for the help.
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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:22 pm

It is good to remind ourselves, as Meido does in the book, that when we refer to Abrahamic religions we are referring to the beliefs of some members of these faiths. More precisely, we are referring to our understanding of the apparent beliefs of some members of those religions. Very often I read that such and such a religion believes or teaches something that I know is not shared or is even widely condemned as a heresy. Look at the Pope’s recent ridicule of the “God as a magician with a white beard living in the sky” idea. Of course, the same is often true when I read about Buddhism.

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Re: “The Rinzai Zen Way”

Post by clyde » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:20 am

I’m still reading my way through. I’m a slow reader and Meido’s writing is worthy of study and reflection.

For example, in Chapter 4, Examining Our Existence, Meido writes this about time and space, and our place,
We are not at all, as we tend to believe, objects existing within time and witnessing its passing, moment by moment. We ourselves are that passing. In fact, we may say that we more exactly seem to be processes, ongoing phenomena manifesting flux and transformation, rather than things. [emphasis added]
Ouch!

And this,
But for our purposes, it is enough to grasp that “things” do not exist as separate things within space at all. They are, again, simply labeled appearances within a web that stretches endlessly in all directions. Energetically, materially, and in many other ways, there is no rigidly defined separation between these shimmering, shifting appearances, and no “here” that does not interpenetrate with “there.”
Thich Nhat Hanh calls it “interbeing” and describes it lovingly in his commentary on the Heart Sutra, The Heart of Understanding. Meido skillfully points to the humility that arises from that realization.

:namaste:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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