Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

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fuki
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Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:39 pm

...bridge
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=120
[The Master tapped his staff on the floor:] Listen, Listen!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"All those who hear it lose themselves" :106:
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https://terebess.hu/zen/caoshan-eng.html#c
http://bactra.org/Zen/Pen-chi/
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lindama
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by lindama » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:49 pm

:110:

That is the first koan I ever heard... the shortened version as I remember it

what is zen?
dragon song in a withered tree
.... what does that mean?
still having joy

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fuki
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:38 pm

Thanks Linda, Dogen's commentary on it is enlightening.
But I wont bridge from rinzai to chan to soto :lol:

there is "something similair" in the gospel of thomas if memory serves.... :hide:
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by lindama » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:40 pm

and the diff is? as many koans as I've seen,I've never read any commentaries....

ps.... I should say, as many as I have heard

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:50 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:40 pm
and the diff is? as many koans as I've seen,I've never read any commentaries....
I never have received formal "training" with koans, in the past I was confused a lot by them so whenever I "work" with a koan now or just read it I make sure I read qualified commentaries, like guo gu's wonderful book. Just to be "save" You might not need them Linda but for me the commentary can be important, not on all koans but again to be "save" it can't hurt. I tend to become "arrogant" when I have no "zen folks" around me, so commentaries give life to dead words and a place like zen space is a good "checking place" for me. Some koans are obvious and some have too much metaphorical speech to practise with without a masters commentary, again might be me.

koans are just dead words to me without understanding the situation, function and direction.
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by lindama » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:01 pm

Fuki, that's just me... most of the ppl around me study them. I'm hoping to get up the energy to read Guo Gu's book

I'd suggest that koans are not dead words... they live! :111:

linda

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:06 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:01 pm
Fuki, that's just me... most of the ppl around me study them. I'm hoping to get up the energy to read Guo Gu's book

I'd suggest that koans are not dead words... they live! :111:

linda
I agree Linda, but sometimes I need a lil bit help.
Luckily I'm eager to learn otherwise the teacher would be helpless.
:111:
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by guo gu » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:20 pm

caoshan is way too kind... but he misunderstood shishuang. they're speaking the same language.
be free,
guo gu

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:12 am

Dragon singing in a dead tree
Is from the Dragon Song School.
There is no Dead Tree Sect.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:11 am

guo gu wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:20 pm
caoshan is way too kind... but he misunderstood shishuang. they're speaking the same language.
be free,
guo gu
Sounds like most relation(ships) I know, saying the same thing while getting vexated because they think they're being opposed. relation means emptiness, miss it and self flourishes. I'm mostly talking about things I see between friends communicating, or my mom and brother. Don't really know about caoshan and shishuang but always thought it was extra speech not necessary. Really have to "sit" with it to get the metaphorical speech cleared up.

Thanks Guo Gu.
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by bokki » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:34 pm

Guo Gu Roshi,
caoshan is way too kind... but he misunderstood shishuang. they're speaking the same language.
be free,
guo gu
when i first saw your post, it read "they are not speaking the same lingo..", i could not raise any q?..it was strange..i thought there may b some mistake somewhere..

but, with this, i feel id like to ask..may i?
do not the words of caoshan and shishuang harmonise, expressing the same?

could you clarify just a bit,
how did caoshan misunderstand shishuang???

thank you.
b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by lindama » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:57 am

Been thinking of posting since this morning when I heard my old friend from SFZC quote Suzuki Roshi:
When you are you,
zen is zen
He was there from the beginning.... I asked him if he actually heard Suzuki Roshi say that.... he said he had heard it many times, but couldn't remember if he actually heard it from Suzuki's lips. There were so many things that he heard. Out here in these parts, ppl often quote Suzuki Roshi just as other folks quote Master Shen Yen. :111: I have no experience with then.

Never mind, it's in the field. saying the same thing

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:45 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:57 am
Been thinking of posting since this morning when I heard my old friend from SFZC quote Suzuki Roshi:
When you are you,
zen is zen
He was there from the beginning.... I asked him if he actually heard Suzuki Roshi say that.... he said he had heard it many times, but couldn't remember if he actually heard it from Suzuki's lips. There were so many things that he heard. Out here in these parts, ppl often quote Suzuki Roshi just as other folks quote Master Shen Yen. :111: I have no experience with then.

Never mind, it's in the field. saying the same thing
only one koan matters
you
~Ikkyu

Wisdom tells me I'm nothing
Love tells me I'm everything
Between the two my life flows
~Sri Niz.
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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by Larry » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:55 am

Love you guys :110:

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by guo gu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:47 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:11 am
guo gu wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:20 pm
caoshan is way too kind... but he misunderstood shishuang. they're speaking the same language.
be free,
guo gu
Sounds like most relation(ships) I know, saying the same thing while getting vexated because they think they're being opposed. relation means emptiness, miss it and self flourishes. I'm mostly talking about things I see between friends communicating, or my mom and brother. Don't really know about caoshan and shishuang but always thought it was extra speech not necessary. Really have to "sit" with it to get the metaphorical speech cleared up.

Thanks Guo Gu.
fuki,
my comment is not about vexations or human relations.
if you're unclear, or wonder what my words mean, examine into this wonderment.
there, you will know where caoshan and shishuang stand.
be well,
guo gu

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by guo gu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:53 pm

bokki wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:34 pm
do not the words of caoshan and shishuang harmonise, expressing the same?
if you accept that without personally knowing, then there's no eye in the skull, no dragon in the dry wood. if you don't accept that, then you're just a skull and a withered log.

these words are not meant to be discussed like some kind of intellectual, discursive exercise.

have fun with it, but look into where you don't understand.

be free,
guo gu

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Re: Pen-chi of Ts'ao-shan

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:54 pm

Sorry Guo Gu, I was using your words as a bridge to entertain something else, I apologize.
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