Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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clyde
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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by clyde » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:55 am

Great Sage; Thank you again for adding more information about TNH and MBSR and IMS.

I think “the teaching is specific that mindfulness is to brought into all the activities” is a common teaching in all Buddhist traditions, at least that’s been my experience. (I belong to a non-sectarian Buddhist sangha, so we have visiting teachers from all Buddhist traditions.)

Your post and this thread confirms what seems obvious, even from the history of Buddhism and Zen - location matters. We easily talk about Chinese Ch’an, Japanese Zen, Korean Seon, etc. It seems that where one is located (e.g. - Australia, a European country, east or west coast of the U.S.) will influence the flavor of Buddhism and Zen one is exposed to and familiar with.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am

The Vietnamese monks who immolated themselves in the 1960s... were they not Thien monks? --Joe

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jundocohen
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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:13 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am
The Vietnamese monks who immolated themselves in the 1960s... were they not Thien monks? --Joe
I don't believe that Lineages are ever so simple in Vietnam, and it might be better just to say that they were Mahayana monks.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:18 am

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:13 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am
The Vietnamese monks who immolated themselves in the 1960s... were they not Thien monks? --Joe
I don't believe that Lineages are ever so simple in Vietnam, and it might be better just to say that they were Mahayana monks.
"Yeah, no"; I just don't know the answer, Jundo.

Maybe the sanghas of those immolated monks do not want to own up to them as having been members. But their robes looked Zen-/Thien-like, is what I remember. And, as to those who appeared in photographs at the time, I think they ended their lives in this way well away from any monastery or temple grounds, but were rather out in the open.

thanks,

--Joe

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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:18 am
...
Maybe the sanghas of those immolated monks do not want to own up to them as having been members. But their robes looked Zen-/Thien-like, is what I remember....
Far from not wanting “to own up to them as having been members” their sanghas regard them as heros. TNH has written about the noble self sacrifice of these monks against religious oppression. They are regarded as spirtual heros by many, if not all, Buddhists in Vietnam and the diaspora.

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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by Meido » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:46 pm

A post over at DW has some interesting info regarding Vietnamese Zen lineages. Not sure how accurate, but certainly some info I hadn't known, particularly RE Caodong lineage there:

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 65#p457512
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

[Note: not reachable by PM. To get in touch please email through the website above.]

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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:59 am

C.,
Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:26 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:18 am
...
Maybe the sanghas of those immolated monks do not want to own up to them as having been members. But their robes looked Zen-/Thien-like, is what I remember....
Far from not wanting “to own up to them as having been members” their sanghas regard them as heros. TNH has written about the noble self sacrifice of these monks against religious oppression. They are regarded as spirtual heros by many, if not all, Buddhists in Vietnam and the diaspora.
Thank you, that's new information to me, after all these years. Much appreciated!!
_/\_ ,

--Joe

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Re: Rinzai? Soto? Both? Neither?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:47 pm

Thích Quảng Đức:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADc ... %E1%BB%A9c

"The body was re-cremated during the funeral, but Đức's heart remained intact and did not burn.[4] It was considered to be holy and placed in a glass chalice at Xá Lợi Pagoda.[5] The intact heart relic[4] is regarded as a symbol of compassion. Đức has subsequently been revered by Vietnamese Buddhists as a bodhisattva (Bồ Tát), and accordingly is often referred to in Vietnamese as Bồ Tát Thích Quảng Đức.[7][32] On 21 August, the ARVN Special Forces of Nhu attacked Xá Lợi and other Buddhist pagodas across Vietnam. The secret police intended to confiscate Đức's ashes, but two monks had escaped with the urn, jumping over the back fence and finding safety at the U.S. Operations Mission next door.[33] Nhu's men managed to confiscate Đức's charred heart.[34]"

President John F. Kennedy, whose government was the main sponsor of Diệm's regime, learned of Đức's death when handed the morning newspapers while he was talking to his brother, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, on the phone. Kennedy reportedly interrupted their conversation about segregation in Alabama by exclaiming "Jesus Christ!" He later remarked that "no news picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world as that one."[41] U.S. Senator Frank Church (D-ID), a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, claimed that "such grisly scenes have not been witnessed since the Christian martyrs marched hand in hand into the Roman arenas."[42]

All Vietnamese Thien Buddhism is Lin Chi school, Chan in lineage, but it absorbed a pre-existing Thien community planted originally and very early by Indian monks. The lower Mekong Delta and Saigon area has some neighboring Theravada influence, particularly in the training of monks, but is more oriented towards Pure Land for lay people, but of Chinese extraction, not Japanese. Tiantai and Hua Yen and Caodong school of Chan are clearly strong influences. Thich Nhat Hahn is often credited for having created these connections, but actually he is a good reflection of his tradition and I'm not sure he would want it any other way. What he does do is de-mystifies Buddhism by not using Buddhist jargon and technical terminology.

(BTW - Thich Nhat Hanh's Plum Village and Order of Interbeing teaches meditation practices that are from Anapannasati Sutta, Satipatanna Sutta, EKOTTARA AGAMA 17.1—MINDFULNESS OF BREATHING, as well as based on sitting comfortably, letting go, experiencing Buddha-nature of mind. Some people say its similar to Soto in this regard. MBSR, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction developed by Jon Kabat Zinn is based on the Mindfulness Meditation taught by Thay, but has a stronger emphasis on non-judgmental attitude. Thay is credited with pairing mindfulness with positive affect, however. Unlike Soto, however the practices are more integrated with walking, laying down, standing, washing dishes, singing songs, memorizing gathas, studying teachings (books, videos etc.), group discussion, group therapy, and pop psychology, and every-day mindfulness.)
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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