on the arising of stress

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clyde
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on the arising of stress

Post by clyde » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 pm

Elsewhere, Fuki wrote this,
fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:12 pm
"Personally" after 20 years I'm currently more and more 'convinced' that it's about attachment to stress and the 'knowledge' that arising stress is void (of own being) on the level of consciousness there will always be "stress", ofcourse lots of "stress" is self-made, unneccesarry and spawned from ignorance/delusion, but I know as long as this vehicle is supported there will be moments of arising stress, in fact (for me) the idea that it something to be avoided, stopped or "liberated" is the very prolonger of stress, in fact it's very equals liberation. When the mind does not abide in anything we're free, in the midst of whatever arises, neither bound or liberated.
I think this is brilliant and I want to unpack it.
“I know as long as this vehicle is supported there will be moments of arising stress”
Fuki was speaking for himself, personally, but this raises an interesting question: Did Gotama’s awakening and liberation bring the cessation of moments of arising stress (dukkha, suffering, discomfort, dissatisfaction, etc.)? Many Buddhists believe enlightenment means that moments of stress no long occur; but many contemporary Buddhist teachers and practitioners (myself included) don’t hold that view.
“in fact (for me) the idea that it something to be avoided, stopped or "liberated" is the very prolonger of stress”
I don’t know if aversion is “the” prolonger of stress, but it is a prolonger of stress. This fact is often talked about by contemporary Buddhist teachers and is sometimes summarized as, “Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.”
“in fact it's very equals liberation.”
Here, I believe Fuki intended to write, “in fact, non-attachment to the arising of stress equals liberation.” But perhaps I’m wrong.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:02 pm

I noticed to quotation from a well-known sutta had translated "dukkha" as "stress" and although i agree stress affects us from the moment we are conceived, it's not the sum total of "dukkha" in all it's forms. One of the things I'm practicing now is how to live in pain without accumulating stress, not looping it back in. Part of that is just simply accepting pain for what it is, limitations for what they are, and not creating outflows of karmic disruption as a result of pain. Adding stress to pain, disease, unhealthiness, just creates more of those things. You can't heal the physical pain this way, but you can heal what it is doing to you as far as it's influence in the Path of Liberation. Then there is also the case of fortunate souls who don't get stressed out, and everything goes very well for them. Nothing to worry about. If they live long enough, they too will find themselves mired in dukkha. It's one of the rules of being alive in the first place. But stress is real, and it's a big problem, I'm willing to talk about that, but i can't use it as a word to replace dukkha.

:115:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by clyde » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:14 pm

I agree that “stress” is not a perfect translation of dukkha. When I read “stress” in this context, I think “distress”. I prefer the terms “dis-ease” or “dissatisfaction”. It’s like you said, it’s what we add to the pain of living.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by [james] » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:50 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 pm
“in fact (for me) the idea that it something to be avoided, stopped or "liberated" is the very prolonger of stress”
I don’t know if aversion is “the” prolonger of stress, but it is a prolonger of stress. This fact is often talked about by contemporary Buddhist teachers and is sometimes summarized as, “Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.”
I think you have inverted his meaning here. Pain may be inevitable. Suffering may not be optional. Saying that suffering is optional is already a declaration that it is “something to be avoided, stopped or liberated”. Adopting a position of complete equanimity to one’s own suffering/stress is liberation.
“in fact it's very equals liberation.”
It’s very arising reveals liberation.

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Kanji » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am

I don't feel that any person can ever be free of pain or stress, which can be caused by diseases, not just mental states. We are only human, after all! I sometimes feel that the expectations put onto enlightenment are more than a little bonkers!

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by lindama » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:53 pm

Kanji wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am
I don't feel that any person can ever be free of pain or stress, which can be caused by diseases, not just mental states. We are only human, after all! I sometimes feel that the expectations put onto enlightenment are more than a little bonkers!
Bonkers says it all Kanji. Posturing about stress and it's cessations seems to be two sides of the same coin. Stress carries a wide meaning beyond the Buddist conception whatever you call it, tho it seems a poor translation for dukka. Then, add in modern stresses, physicial, mental and environmental stresses, and there is quite a pot of soup we are trying to stir. It is simplistic to lump it all together, bonkers actually. We might say disrespectful with the dumbing down of a term like dukka. Meditation furthers, so does a healthy life style... personally, ashwagandha also furthers. On the shadow side, we could look deeper into the power dynamics and a tinge of blame.

Compassion is a worthy antidote.

linda
Last edited by lindama on Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by [james] » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Kanji wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am
I don't feel that any person can ever be free of pain or stress, ... We are only human, after all!
I agree with you. And, according to the teachings, the human realm is the only one of the six where liberation from samsara is possible. So there is dissatisfaction, suffering, stress with and without our own contributions (we are even capable of turning the path of liberation into a quagmire of confusion ... bonkers indeed). This stressfulness is in fact an energy which can be an obstacle or an ally. Its ubiquity can be seen as an insurmountable obstruction or can be accepted as the fuel of our (fearless) exploration. For students and practitioners of Zen, it is clear that the second possibility is the necessary one.
I sometimes feel that the expectations put onto enlightenment are more than a little bonkers!

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Kanji » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:38 am

[quote=lindama
Meditation furthers, so does a healthy life style... personally, ashwagandha also furthers. On the shadow side, we could look deeper into the power dynamics and a tinge of blame.

Compassion is a worthy antidote.

linda
[/quote]

Compassion all the way Linda! And wisdom, which I hope to live long enough to experience.(taps foot, looks at watch.) :D

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Crystal » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:46 am

Kanji wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am
I don't feel that any person can ever be free of pain or stress, which can be caused by diseases, not just mental states. We are only human, after all! I sometimes feel that the expectations put onto enlightenment are more than a little bonkers!

Absolutely! ...and in sutta MN53, even the Buddha complained about his back aching!


Then the Blessed One — having spent most of the night instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the Kapilavatthu Sakyans with a Dhamma talk — said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. My back aches. I will rest it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I tend to think that notions about an omniscient superman were added at a later date.

_/|\_

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Crystal » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:56 am

Deleted.

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Kanji » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:27 am

Crystal wrote:
Absolutely! ...and in sutta MN53, even the Buddha complained about his back aching!


Then the Blessed One — having spent most of the night instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the Kapilavatthu Sakyans with a Dhamma talk — said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. My back aches. I will rest it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I tend to think that notions about an omniscient superman were added at a later date.

_/|\_
Love this Crystal, backache is universal! :D

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:36 am

If the superhuman poetry turns you off, take a look at the accounts of Buddha’s last days, complaining of stomach distress (he died of food poisoning). He comes across in the suttas as sometimes frustrated, sarcastic, and crotchety, but always very human.

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Great Sage EofH » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:38 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:36 am
If the superhuman poetry turns you off, take a look at the accounts of Buddha’s last days, complaining of stomach distress (he died of food poisoning). He comes across in the suttas as sometimes frustrated, sarcastic, and crotchety, but always very human.
I sincerely belive Buddha had superpowers. Any attempts to reduce him to a logician will be resisted in these quarters
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Crystal » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:26 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:38 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:36 am
If the superhuman poetry turns you off, take a look at the accounts of Buddha’s last days, complaining of stomach distress (he died of food poisoning). He comes across in the suttas as sometimes frustrated, sarcastic, and crotchety, but always very human.
I sincerely belive Buddha had superpowers. Any attempts to reduce him to a logician will be resisted in these quarters
This is from the conclusion of "Levitation in Early Buddhist Discourse" by early Buddhism scholar Bhikkhu Analayo:

A comparative study of reports that the Buddha and his disciples journeyed to celestial realms or traversed considerable distances on earth through the power of levitation gives the impression that at an early stage these would have been envisaged as being done with a mind-made body.

Probably as a result of literalism, a tendency that makes itself felt in various ways in the early Buddhist texts and which has led to a range of developments in the Buddhist traditions, at a relatively early stage this would then have led to the idea that such feats involve acts of levitation done with the physical body.

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... tation.pdf
_/|\_

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by lindama » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:46 pm

I sincerely belive Buddha had superpowers. Any attempts to reduce him to a logician will be resisted in these quarters
[/quote]

I'd agree and add I don't view it as super human. It is our inherent human birth right lost long ago. yes, it won't free us of sickness.

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:47 pm

According to one account of the historical Buddha’s death, he went “up” through the various Jhana states to the oblivious level where there is no pain. He then deliberately came “down” to the level where pain is felt. He chose to die feeling that pain. It is useful to think why this story is told and rembered this way and what point is being made.

Existent or non-existent superpowers are not highly valued in Buddhism starting from the Buddha’s comments to the saddhu who who said he could walk on water after many, many years of hard practice. To paraphrase, “You spent years in arduous practice to avoid paying a penny to the ferryman? Really?”

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by clyde » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:11 pm

It sometimes seem that the Buddha’s life, the suttas and the sutras are like an inkblot (See: Rorschach test), each of us seeing what we see. And even if we see things as they actually are, we’re still only seeing what is from our personal and private (exclusive and non-shareable) viewpoint.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Great Sage EofH » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:14 pm

It's not the levitation that will kill you, it's the accidental falling out of it.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by avisitor » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:34 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:14 pm
It's not the levitation that will kill you, it's the accidental falling out of it.
It isn't the fall that kills you, it is the sudden stop. :roll:

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Re: on the arising of stress

Post by Crystal » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:22 pm

Image

Wheeeeee!


.

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