Whats your practice?

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

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daibunny
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by daibunny » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 pm

el gatito wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:41 pm

In my experience -- the body is absolutely and totally being used.

Yeah i think so too. Its a kind of active relaxation, a sort of physical ongoing surrender.
I was having trouble for a while sitting for my usual 40 minutes, my back was hurting but thats nothing new, and i think that part of the problem for me was that i was trying to sort of put my body at arms length because of the pain and that pushing it away, so to speak, actually made it more distracting.
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:42 pm

El Gatito wrote: And I am not at all against any kind of formal practice you follow -- but, just for a quick moment, to have a taste of a complete freedom -- to be the master of your own Way..
Hey I used to be an enthusiastic reader of Krishnamurti.....
The most important thing is not at all important.

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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:02 pm

Who is 'master'? I find that samskara are usually calling the tune. And they're baked in. 'Being natural' then amounts to allowing them free reign. If that wasn't the problem, then I wouldn't be in need of a solution!
The most important thing is not at all important.

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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:23 pm

Keith has posted a ink to an excellent talk by Dosho Port :namaste: which contains the following:
James Myoun Ford Roshi recently wrote, “I’ve observed movement of the heart, actual changes in how one encounters life that can be associated with Zen meditation – if one sits at a minimum about half an hour a day, most days.”

He goes on to add occasional retreats, checking in with a spiritual director (aka, a Zen teacher), dharma study, and koan introspection.

In my view, James’ suggested minimum is right for a “movement of the heart, actual changes in how one encounters life.” They are sufficient to enter the Zen path, but not enough for most people to kenshō as clear as the palm of your hand, the standard Hakuin uses six times in CPB. In my experience, for most people, a clear kenshō usually takes considerably more than that. I recommend an hour a day of zazen and at least 20 days of sesshin a year. Maybe I’m just a slow learner and work with slow learners (no offense intended).

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen ... WzsVpE3.99

Spot on! I am working towards daily morning and evening sessions, and in future also to attend sesshins regularly. It takes constant and diligent application. But at the same time, you can’t fall into thinking ‘hey I’m good at this. See what a good effort I’m making.’ That is self-centred thinking.’ That is the meaning of ‘no gaining idea’ - not that there is nothing to be understood, no great thing that needs to be seen, but that it is going to be of personal benefit to you. On the contrary, it needs to be realised so you can be of benefit to others!
The most important thing is not at all important.

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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by KeithA » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:21 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:23 pm
Keith has posted a ink to an excellent talk by Dosho Port :namaste: which contains the following:
James Myoun Ford Roshi recently wrote, “I’ve observed movement of the heart, actual changes in how one encounters life that can be associated with Zen meditation – if one sits at a minimum about half an hour a day, most days.”

He goes on to add occasional retreats, checking in with a spiritual director (aka, a Zen teacher), dharma study, and koan introspection.

In my view, James’ suggested minimum is right for a “movement of the heart, actual changes in how one encounters life.” They are sufficient to enter the Zen path, but not enough for most people to kenshō as clear as the palm of your hand, the standard Hakuin uses six times in CPB. In my experience, for most people, a clear kenshō usually takes considerably more than that. I recommend an hour a day of zazen and at least 20 days of sesshin a year. Maybe I’m just a slow learner and work with slow learners (no offense intended).

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen ... WzsVpE3.99

Spot on! I am working towards daily morning and evening sessions, and in future also to attend sesshins regularly. It takes constant and diligent application. But at the same time, you can’t fall into thinking ‘hey I’m good at this. See what a good effort I’m making.’ That is self-centred thinking.’ That is the meaning of ‘no gaining idea’ - not that there is nothing to be understood, no great thing that needs to be seen, but that it is going to be of personal benefit to you. On the contrary, it needs to be realised so you can be of benefit to others!
Isn't that interesting? You picked up on the one part I had a quibble with. I think Robert Aitken wrote somewhere that 10 minutes a day could be useful. He then qualified it by suggesting too much is impossible! :106:

I wonder about putting arbitrary numbers on sitting time and practice in general. I generally sit 30 minutes a day. At home I just light a stick of incense and get up when it's gone. But, I suspect we all have to find our own rhythm. I suppose it does help to give folks something to shoot for, as long as it made clear that practice is moment to moment, not separate from time on the cushion. I asked Dosho Port about that on facebook, but no response.

Anyway, definitely on board with avoiding making judgments about our personal practice. One way to avoid that is to consider why we are doing it in the first place!

_/|\_
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm

KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:21 pm
Anyway, definitely on board with avoiding making judgments about our personal practice. One way to avoid that is to consider why we are doing it in the first place!

_/|\_
Especially when not asked for advice or comments ;)

ps I have no mind for practise.
If I want to call it a name I'd say "non-dwelling" or "don't know" as they say in Korean Zen (btw how do you say it in Korean Keith?)
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KeithA
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by KeithA » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:34 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:21 pm
Anyway, definitely on board with avoiding making judgments about our personal practice. One way to avoid that is to consider why we are doing it in the first place!

_/|\_
Especially when not asked for advice or comments ;)

ps I have no mind for practise.
If I want to call it a name I'd say "non-dwelling" or "don't know" as they say in Korean Zen (btw how do you say it in Korean Keith?)
"Don't know" is something ZM Seung Sahn often said to his Kwan Um students. I am not sure there is a Korean equivalent term. The direction of it is one of non-attachment to ideas and opinions. Oftentimes, people equate it with the legend of Bodhidharma's response to Emperor Wu when asked by the emperor: Who is it that is before me? To which Bodhidharma replied: I don't know.

Mu Shim in Korean, means "no mind", and is popular Dharma name for monastics. It is as close as I can think of for "non-dwelling" If anyone is interested in a big list of Korean Buddhist terms, there is one here.

_/|\_
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:53 pm

KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:34 pm
Mu Shim in Korean, means "no mind", and is popular Dharma name for monastics. It is as close as I can think of for "non-dwelling" If anyone is interested in a big list of Korean Buddhist terms, there is one here.

_/|\_
Thank you Sir, now I know what to call my next pet, Mu Shim! :D
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:53 pm

Hi,

Hi posted something in another thread, but it connects here to "what I Practice," and also how I recommend that Shikantaza be sat. Folks sometimes still sit what they call "Shikantaza," but are looking for some peace or special state of mind or spiritual experience from it. The funny thing is that, in real Shikantaza, one finds a certain "Peace, Special State and Spritual Experience" by radically abandoning the seeking of any peace, special state or spiritual experience. :105: It is a radical finding by NOT seeking.
[R]adically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add, remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! Though "nothing to do, nothing to change," one simultaneously becomes free of the excess desire, frustration and divisive thinking that is fed by seeking. The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!
posting.php?mode=edit&f=27&p=1381
Anyway, that is what I Practice, and also recommend to folks interested in real Shikantaza.

Gassho, Jundo
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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KeithA
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by KeithA » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:26 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:53 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:34 pm
Mu Shim in Korean, means "no mind", and is popular Dharma name for monastics. It is as close as I can think of for "non-dwelling" If anyone is interested in a big list of Korean Buddhist terms, there is one here.

_/|\_
Thank you Sir, now I know what to call my next pet, Mu Shim! :D
:cat:
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:33 am

Well, sat much better this morning. I decided to be mindful of my 'not wanting to sit', just to look closely at that exact feeling, and lo and behold, it dispersed.

:namaste:
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:19 am

I don't know what they call "kensho" "kenshoed" "kenshoing" - whats the generally accepted sound bite definition?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by bokki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:24 am

Sir, :waving: ,
i must apologise to you..
but..
I don't know what they call "kensho" "kenshoed" "kenshoing" - whats the generally accepted sound bite definition?
you dont know..well, ok, you know, its just a start into zen..what u call it...Buddhism, i think
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burst into flames.
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by bokki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:30 am

lol, Sir,
Ta Hui parting verse in your signiture
and you doubt the core of zen..
you do not know? y speak, dang? y!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:12 am

I didn't much like the way the Dosho Port article uses 'kensho' as a verb, e.g. 'he kenshoed'. On similar grounds to not liking the use of the word 'action' as a verb for instance 'she will action it tomorrow'. I think it is inelegant English usage.

(But the term, generally, means 'awakening' or 'realisation'. I think it is equivalent to, or related to 'satori'.)
The most important thing is not at all important.

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KeithA
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by KeithA » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:56 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:19 am
I don't know what they call "kensho" "kenshoed" "kenshoing" - whats the generally accepted sound bite definition?
I like the word "opening". In my tradition, we never mention it. Like, ever. Except, possibly, in the interview room with a teacher. I am not saying that's a good or bad thing, it's just how it's done.

It's an event that happens, so I guess the action form of the word appears. I have also seen "attained kensho", which is probably a better way to say it, imho.
You make, you get.

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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:51 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:33 am
Well, sat much better this morning. I decided to be mindful of my 'not wanting to sit', just to look closely at that exact feeling, and lo and behold, it dispersed.

:namaste:
That's the beauty of it, since nothing which arises or appears is actually created in reality everything is spontaneously liberated into its own condition. Only when one grasps at whatever arises do errors come into existence, when we realize all phenomena are empty and thoughts are just insubstantial breezes wanting and not wanting also are not granted the stamp of reality. Whatever arises is simultaniously liberated so we just sit and observe instead of entertaining the contents of mind.
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:54 pm

bokki wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:30 am
lol, Sir,
Ta Hui parting verse in your signiture
and you doubt the core of zen..
you do not know? y speak, dang? y!
Pretty sure he was being sarcastically humorous lol
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:57 pm

bokki wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:30 am
lol, Sir,
Ta Hui parting verse in your signiture
and you doubt the core of zen..
you do not know? y speak, dang? y!
LOL no I was kept in the dark and fed like a mushroom. I think kenshonis like a momentary enlightenment event, authentic but leaves no trace? I don’t know the Japanese lingo my tradition is Vietnamese but refsngled into a modern institutional systematic mindfulness thingy. So forgive my lack of not knowing the knots.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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bokki
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Re: Whats your practice?

Post by bokki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:44 pm

sir, u, u, you think kensho is a momentary enlightenment thingy that leaves no trace?


how about u dont think of it, thank u very much.

no trace?
lol
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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