Mindfulness Meditation

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
avisitor
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:41 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:56 pm
So, going back to the zafu, the practice is one of waking up. Today I noticed this feeling when I was toying with sustained, controlled attention in zazen, this feeling arose that its like floating in a small boat. The buoyancy arises when the attention is sustained. Thats when breath becomes very shallow and slow, blood pressure drops. Sorry if this is rambling, but thats just it, carrying the buoyancy forward like Grand Master, i think its doable for almost everyone.
I know I am not making any friends here
But, am not willing to just accept what is without questions
Sorry if this offends anyone.

"The practice is one of waking up."??
I had thought the practice is to prepare one for waking up.
For me there seems to be a slight difference in the Dharma
I don't practice with the belief that it will provide me with Kensho, satori, or anything.

"When breath becomes very shallow and slow" ...???
That is another point, it seems one is using attention to manipulate breath
Or using breath to manipulate attention
How does one just watch the breath without manipulating the breath?
Could slow and shallow breaths cause the brain to have a lack of oxygen which causes this buoyancy feeling???
Not meant to offend. Just questions.

Maybe better just not to post anymore of my opinions and questions
Last edited by avisitor on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spike
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Spike » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:08 pm

Worthy points for discussion.

A Venn diagram might be appropriate to illustrate the relationship between practice and waking up, in some cases. Adjustable over time.

Acknowledging non-duality, there is an obvious interface between physical and mental components in practice. Lightheadedness or buoyancy, especially before arising from a seated position, obviously could be a physical concern. It could also indicate attention straying.

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:34 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:41 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:56 pm
So, going back to the zafu, the practice is one of waking up. Today I noticed this feeling when I was toying with sustained, controlled attention in zazen, this feeling arose that its like floating in a small boat. The buoyancy arises when the attention is sustained. Thats when breath becomes very shallow and slow, blood pressure drops. Sorry if this is rambling, but thats just it, carrying the buoyancy forward like Grand Master, i think its doable for almost everyone.
I know I am not making any friends here
But, am not willing to just accept what is without questions
Sorry if this offends anyone.

"The practice is one of waking up."??
I had thought the practice is to prepare one for waking up.
For me there seems to be a slight difference in the Dharma
I don't practice with the belief that it will provide me with Kensho, satori, or anything.

"When breath becomes very shallow and slow" ...???
That is another point, it seems one is using attention to manipulate breath
Or using breath to manipulate attention
How does one just watch the breath without manipulating the breath?
Could slow and shallow breaths cause the brain to have a lack of oxygen which causes this buoyancy feeling???
Not meant to offend. Just questions.

Maybe better just not to post anymore of my opinions and questions
You should reject the notion that you aren't making friends. If you are afraid to confront your friend directly, you probably aren't friends. This isn't necessarily about being polite. Hopefully it is about practice that frees beings.

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as preparing to wake up. Imagine that we are in a dungeon trying to drill our way out. We drill on the wall, but thats not the same as seeing the sunlight on the outside. Waking up is breaking through, and it's not bound by space or time. We don't get to choose which part of the sky we see, we just get to see the sky and get out of the dungeon.

Just attention on the breath changes the breath. It's the way the parasympathetic system works. Our effort is to only watch the breath, not to change it. As a result it changes. Changing the breath is not intentional. Your body regulates how much oxygen it needs.

Could slow and shallow breaths cause the brain to have a lack of oxygen which causes this buoyancy feeling??? I don't know, i'll try it and see. I used to free-dive and never noticed this happen however.

There are some description that are difficult to craft, and its easy to fall into poor description, or misunderstandings. I'm just describing what i think "don't just do something, sit there" means.

:559:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Larry
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Larry » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:34 pm
"don't just do something, sit there"
Interesting quote. Professor Google reckons it dates from a 1959 Oklahoma newspaper, Tulsa World. Where it was a variation on the earlier "Don't just do something, stand there" from 1945.

I used to think it was originally from Osho :mrgreen:

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:23 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:34 pm
"don't just do something, sit there"
liked
cooper

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:41 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:34 pm
You should reject the notion that you aren't making friends. If you are afraid to confront your friend directly, you probably aren't friends. This isn't necessarily about being polite. Hopefully it is about practice that frees beings.

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as preparing to wake up. Imagine that we are in a dungeon trying to drill our way out. We drill on the wall, but thats not the same as seeing the sunlight on the outside. Waking up is breaking through, and it's not bound by space or time. We don't get to choose which part of the sky we see, we just get to see the sky and get out of the dungeon.

Just attention on the breath changes the breath. It's the way the parasympathetic system works. Our effort is to only watch the breath, not to change it. As a result it changes. Changing the breath is not intentional. Your body regulates how much oxygen it needs.

Could slow and shallow breaths cause the brain to have a lack of oxygen which causes this buoyancy feeling??? I don't know, i'll try it and see. I used to free-dive and never noticed this happen however.

There are some description that are difficult to craft, and its easy to fall into poor description, or misunderstandings. I'm just describing what i think "don't just do something, sit there" means.

:559:
Thank you for your reply,

Friends are about feelings. Humans are ruled by their feelings.
So, going back to the zafu, the practice is one of waking up.
I think of the practice as preparing the ground to plant seeds so one can grow crops.
Preparing the ground and planting is not the same as growing crops.
And it is done so something can come from it
But, other than preparing and planting (maybe watering), there is not much else we can do to get the crops to grow.
The weather conditions must be right for the seeds to flourish.
Where as your words give me the idea that practice would bring about Kensho, satori
More practice, more kensho????
No amount of Zazen or practice will bring about Kensho
However, there is little chance that Kensho will be experienced if there is no practice.
Granted slight difference and doesn't matter to most.

Yes, just putting attention on the breath changes the breath.
However, I believe that it is the brain or mind that determines the need for oxygen.
Shallow breathing is a reflection of the mind trying to still itself.
Don't know if this is good or bad.

In meditation or Zazen, there is a danger of the mind becoming lazy
It can revel in the quiet and be lost in a fog
A good smack by the kyosaku by the resident Zendo master would surely improves one's efforts
Someday I hope to find a good center to practice with a sangha and teacher.
But, plans often get derailed.

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:53 pm

avisitor wrote: Someday I hope to find a good center to practice with a sangha and teacher.
But, plans often get derailed.
Your plan is a good plan.
cooper

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:54 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm

I used to think it was originally from Osho :mrgreen:
ps the Buddha would turn in his grave as the expression goes if he'd saw how many stuff would be said in his name, not negating or worming stuff here, it is the human way, we need stories to believe in before we can apply medicine apparently, all good. like a doctor who story, who? - yeah that one ;)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Spike » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:51 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:54 pm
Larry wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm

I used to think it was originally from Osho :mrgreen:
ps the Buddha would turn in his grave as the expression goes if he'd saw how many stuff would be said in his name, not negating or worming stuff here, it is the human way, we need stories to believe in before we can apply medicine apparently, all good. like a doctor who story, who? - yeah that one ;)
that's right!

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:57 am

When some one says that you should do mindfulness meditation, do you instantly know what the person is talking about?
And if not then how is it different from just regularly being aware of self?
How is it being mindful when one slows one's breath to match the person's demand to stop the monkey mind?

I have done the slowing of one's breath and the mind calms
Is this good or bad?
But, during regular hours where one is engaged in daily living, breath isn't set at such a slow pace
The mind isn't mindful when it can only be calm when sitting in meditation
What is the mind's reaction to such activity when it only sees the period of quiet in sitting meditation alone?

When one is active and the mind is confused, taking a moment to catch one's breath and calm down does help.
Can one practice regular breaths and still calm the mind?

May be I just think too much about practice that it takes away from practice.
But, how does one ignore warning of Shikantaza. Just sitting but not in a fog of just sitting??
How does one know it is being done right?
Or is questioning such things part of the trap the mind sets up to stop progress?

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am

Yes, mindfulness meditation all about Anapanasati Sutta, or the Mahayana Agama equivalent. Usually if they say Insight or Vipasana, they mean based on Satipatanna Sutta practice. With mindfulness , you don't want to force the mind or the breath, it's just an easy technique for calming the mind. It's significance is mostly that people don't have calm minds. Shikantaza is a different practice, as is Silent Illumination, although the two trace back to the same source. I'm okay when people talk about the technique i use, i lose context in discussing other techniques, particularly if i don't practice them. There's a lot of discussion out there on these topics, it's hard to point you in the right direction. The whole point of these things is that it is mental training in holding things that aren't easy to hold. So the effect is two-fold, (1) getting better at meditation and (2) developing 24/7 mindful awareness. Somebody will tell you the mind is already perfect, but YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by [james] » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:37 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
Yes, mindfulness meditation all about Anapanasati Sutta, or the Mahayana Agama equivalent.
Is there a Mahayana equivalent? I’d never thought so. Would be interested to know more about it.
Usually if they say Insight or Vipasana, they mean based on Satipatanna Sutta practice.

The Webu Sayadaw said that anapanasati is sufficient which suggests, to me, that insight is not necessarily linked to any particular method.
With mindfulness , you don't want to force the mind or the breath
Unless you do.
, it's just an easy technique for calming the mind. It's significance is mostly that people don't have calm minds.
That in itself is amazing and is only the beginning. And even if that is its only significance, I’m with the Sayadaw on this one (he reportedly also said that sleeping is a waste of time).
Shikantaza is a different practice, as is Silent Illumination, although the two trace back to the same source.
So many names. Even one is too many, though “same source” is almost in view of vague enough.
I'm okay when people talk about the technique i use, i lose context in discussing other techniques, particularly if i don't practice them.
What do you use or practice? I usually enjoy your posts.
There's a lot of discussion out there on these topics, it's hard to point you in the right direction.
??? ... who are you talking too? maybe I should review the o.p.
The whole point of these things is that it is mental training in holding things that aren't easy to hold.
Why would you want to hold on to them then? What is it of the things you mention, that merits holding on to?
So the effect is two-fold, (1) getting better at meditation and (2) developing 24/7 mindful awareness.
If it is twofold, how are you going to have time for meditation if you are 24/7 mindfully aware?
Somebody will tell you the mind is already perfect, but YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
I don’t think so!

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:02 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:37 am
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
Yes, mindfulness meditation all about Anapanasati Sutta, or the Mahayana Agama equivalent.
Is there a Mahayana equivalent? I’d never thought so. Would be interested to know more about it.
Usually if they say Insight or Vipasana, they mean based on Satipatanna Sutta practice.

The Webu Sayadaw said that anapanasati is sufficient which suggests, to me, that insight is not necessarily linked to any particular method.
With mindfulness , you don't want to force the mind or the breath
Unless you do. -THATS A GOOD POINT, IF EFFORT NATURALLY ARISES IT IS RIGHT EFFORT
, it's just an easy technique for calming the mind. It's significance is mostly that people don't have calm minds.
That in itself is amazing and is only the beginning. And even if that is its only significance, I’m with the Sayadaw on this one (he reportedly also said that sleeping is a waste of time).
Shikantaza is a different practice, as is Silent Illumination, although the two trace back to the same source.
So many names. Even one is too many, though “same source” is almost in view of vague enough. COVERING 2600 YEARS IN ONE SENTENCE IS VAGUE
I'm okay when people talk about the technique i use, i lose context in discussing other techniques, particularly if i don't practice them.
What do you use or practice? I usually enjoy your posts.
I USE MINDFULNESS MEDITATION TAUGHT BY THICH NHAT HANH, I ALSO USE MBSR AS DEVELOPED BY JON KABAT ZINN - THE 2 ARE COMPATIBLE
There's a lot of discussion out there on these topics, it's hard to point you in the right direction.
??? ... who are you talking too? maybe I should review the o.p. THE OTHER GUY ^^ READ UP
The whole point of these things is that it is mental training in holding things that aren't easy to hold.
Why would you want to hold on to them then? What is it of the things you mention, that merits holding on to? SUCH AS WISDOM - I AGREE POOR CHOISE OF WORDS
So the effect is two-fold, (1) getting better at meditation and (2) developing 24/7 mindful awareness.
If it is twofold, how are you going to have time for meditation if you are 24/7 mindfully aware?
Somebody will tell you the mind is already perfect, but YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
I don’t think so!
I QUESTION WHETHER IMPERFECTION ISN'T THE EQUAL TO PERFECTION
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:39 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
Yes, mindfulness meditation all about Anapanasati Sutta, or the Mahayana Agama equivalent. Usually if they say Insight or Vipasana, they mean based on Satipatanna Sutta practice. With mindfulness , you don't want to force the mind or the breath, it's just an easy technique for calming the mind.
May not want to use force but some amount is necessary to get started
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
It's significance is mostly that people don't have calm minds. Shikantaza is a different practice, as is Silent Illumination, although the two trace back to the same source.
I just mention Shikantaza because I have heard so many warnings about doing it correctly or it becomes a mechanical exercise or fog
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
The whole point of these things is that it is mental training in holding things that aren't easy to hold. So the effect is two-fold, (1) getting better at meditation and (2) developing 24/7 mindful awareness. Somebody will tell you the mind is already perfect, but YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
Have heard that it is like holding sand.
Hold too tight and the sand slips away
Hold too loose and the sand falls away
So need right effort??

Not so much that the mind is perfect
More like everyone already has Buddha nature
And seeing into one's Buddha nature doesn't change what one has
Still, shouldn't mean one stops meditation

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:11 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:39 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
Yes, mindfulness meditation all about Anapanasati Sutta, or the Mahayana Agama equivalent. Usually if they say Insight or Vipasana, they mean based on Satipatanna Sutta practice. With mindfulness , you don't want to force the mind or the breath, it's just an easy technique for calming the mind.
May not want to use force but some amount is necessary to get started
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
It's significance is mostly that people don't have calm minds. Shikantaza is a different practice, as is Silent Illumination, although the two trace back to the same source.
I just mention Shikantaza because I have heard so many warnings about doing it correctly or it becomes a mechanical exercise or fog
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 am
The whole point of these things is that it is mental training in holding things that aren't easy to hold. So the effect is two-fold, (1) getting better at meditation and (2) developing 24/7 mindful awareness. Somebody will tell you the mind is already perfect, but YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
Have heard that it is like holding sand.
Hold too tight and the sand slips away
Hold too loose and the sand falls away
So need right effort??

Not so much that the mind is perfect
More like everyone already has Buddha nature
And seeing into one's Buddha nature doesn't change what one has
Still, shouldn't mean one stops meditation
Well, since everyone has innate Buddha-Nature, "doing it wrong" is not disastrous. It's at the very worst an invitation to do it right. Thoughts and feelings arise, then fall away. They aren't permanent. Forming an attachment to them ditto. Building a Zen sand-castle in your mind is subject to tides and seasons. One solid rock is a better foundation, but not a fancy as a castle? Dogen brought this shikantaza back from China, so I'd simply read the Dogen. Its all in there. If you fall into mechanical exercise or fog no big deal we can fix that too. Recently I've discovered the value of being non-chalant. Like if you go to sit, and a demon confronts you. If you are nonchalant you can ask what they want, and move on. Or simply tell them to mind their own god damn business. Its a fine disposition to have.

:115:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:32 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:11 pm
Well, since everyone has innate Buddha-Nature, "doing it wrong" is not disastrous.
As nice as that sounds, it provides no relief.
There is a difference from having innate Buddha nature and being truly aware of it
Disaster is having to go to the next re-birth ...

On the outside, no one can see the difference
Other than in our actions

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 pm

Anything about this life and future life is mere speculation, unlike the proximity of Buddha Nature. This is the human condition, that we find the hypothetical to be more real than what’s right in front of us.

One this for sure you can say about shikantaza is "there's nothing to it"

As far as the Purity Police coming around telling you you're doing it all wrong, they too, can mind their own business.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:44 am

NO vote at all one way or the other! The reason is...

Haven't "tried" it, because have always been a Ch'an and Zen Buddhist practitioner.

I've looked at later original Indian Buddhist meditation teachings, though, and respect them very much.

I'm a fan of what Buddhagosha writes in his VISUDDHIMAGGA (Path of Perfection), but, as I see it, that material and teaching has been supplanted by Ch'an and Zen Buddhist teaching (for those who may care to take it up).

"Mindfulness" as a practice, as presented by the most modern presenters, is an unknown to me, a complete algebraic "x". Not interested. All's well, I think! If I'm missing anything, at least I don't know what it is, to try to grasp onto.

Why do such a survey, by the way? Eh?

--Joe
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:39 pm
Quick vote, if you have tried “Mindfulness Meditation” or “Mindfulness Practices”

Vote AYE or NAY, thumbs up or thumbs down

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:22 am

The OP was addressed to Dharmawheel, Dhammawheel, and Zen1Space, just to get an idea who has done something described as "Mindfulness" - overwhelmingly Dhammawheel, the Theravada forum.
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:46 pm

GS EofH,
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:22 am
The OP was addressed to Dharmawheel, Dhammawheel, and Zen1Space, just to get an idea who has done something described as "Mindfulness" - overwhelmingly Dhammawheel, the Theravada forum.
I see, yes, OK, thanks.

But anyway, speaking to our crowd here, please don't let any of us count out the Visuddhimagga! Choose your translation, and enjoy a 1000-page book. :)

--Joe
Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind. - Ma Tsu

Liberation is awakening to one's original nature. - Ma Tsu

A guest never knows how much to laugh at a family joke. -Henny Youngman

Bodhi-Mind is working for the good of others. -Hakuin

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