Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

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fuki
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:41 pm

I understand D A N fuki
I did adress that in my post by saying we can't always be sure what is meaningful or pretense for sometimes thing can bloom between 2 members what seem to be just traffic noise for others. However many stuff can be disposed of, it doesnt distract me but "too much of nothing can do a man no good" ofcourse.
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by jundocohen » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:54 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:14 pm
This is all good and fine but doesn't really address my post, F u k i.

I wasn't talking about who is and isn't a real Zen practitioner but more along the lines of what makes a discussion meaningful and useful to us in the context of life-practice and what makes for a bit of lazy splashing around or worse, pretense.
I must say that I am having difficulty to see how most of the comments around "Zen Space" recently have much of anything to do with "Zen" (except in the sense that "everything in the universe and then some" = "Zen"). I can't make heads or tails of many of them, and it is not because they are Koan-like.

The same problems that infected ZFI at the end are manifesting here, in my opinion. Sorry, but there is now very little discussion of "Zen" at "Zen Space" (maybe a lot of "Spacey" however).

As an example of what can be done, the moderators of the Soto Zen Buddhist group on Facebook do a very good job of keeping postings and conversation there on track about "Soto Zen Buddhism," and the same is and can be done for "Zen Buddhism" in general. Unfortunately, everything and anything vaguely "Eastern" seems to go here, and I think the "Zen" is lost in the woods. The moderators need to have the moxy to keep discussions on track about Zen (except in those sections of the Forum where wider topics are permitted).

I know my saying that will not please the majority of people here at so-called "Zen Space," who seem to have often a very nebulous relationship to Zen Practice. Another option is just to change the name and mission of this place.

Gassho, Jundo
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:00 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:54 pm
I know my saying that will not please the majority of people here at so-called "Zen Space," who seem to have often a very nebulous relationship to Zen Practice. Another option is just to change the name and mission of this place.

Gassho, Jundo
I agree with that, most of it is lounge talk.
99.9999% of my posts aren't about "Zen" as I said I don't find it a distraction but I noticed on the old forums as well ppl may "frown" (sorry cant find the word) upon that. I just like to talk to ppl and connect since offline I'm a very quiet person, as in non-talkative (imagine that)
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by jundocohen » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:09 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:54 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:14 pm
This is all good and fine but doesn't really address my post, F u k i.

I wasn't talking about who is and isn't a real Zen practitioner but more along the lines of what makes a discussion meaningful and useful to us in the context of life-practice and what makes for a bit of lazy splashing around or worse, pretense.
I must say that I am having difficulty to see how most of the comments around "Zen Space" recently have much of anything to do with "Zen" (except in the sense that "everything in the universe and then some" = "Zen"). I can't make heads or tails of many of them, and it is not because they are Koan-like.

The same problems that infected ZFI at the end are manifesting here, in my opinion. Sorry, but there is now very little discussion of "Zen" at "Zen Space" (maybe a lot of "Spacey" however).

As an example of what can be done, the moderators of the Soto Zen Buddhist group on Facebook do a very good job of keeping postings and conversation there on track about "Soto Zen Buddhism," and the same is and can be done for "Zen Buddhism" in general. Unfortunately, everything and anything vaguely "Eastern" seems to go here, and I think the "Zen" is lost in the woods. The moderators need to have the moxy to keep discussions on track about Zen (except in those sections of the Forum where wider topics are permitted).

I know my saying that will not please the majority of people here at so-called "Zen Space," who seem to have often a very nebulous relationship to Zen Practice. Another option is just to change the name and mission of this place.

Gassho, Jundo
Maybe this might be split as a separate discussion, by the way. Unfortunately, I don't think it should be decided by "majority vote," but more by a serious look at whether this is truly a place that is as described in the Header:

Zen Space
A Zen Buddhist discussion forum. Zen Space is a free community service run by volunteers to provide an online place to discuss Zen Buddhism and to share our collective knowledge and experience.


The majority of active voices here might not actually be that now. Same thing plagued ZFI in its later period. I know my saying so might not win any popularity contest here.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:45 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:09 pm

The majority of active voices here might not actually be that now. Same thing plagued ZFI in its later period. I know my saying so might not win any popularity contest here.

Gassho, J
Sounds like you're adressing the enviroment/situation and not the person, so no "popularity" down or upvoting I'd say.

Dont know about a plague, the founders of this site should/could discuss whether they need to move about furniture in accordance with the designation of the room (zenspace) or not. I'm happy to oblige to whatever is "most wanted" if needed. But I cant think for others, thats a mom's job :D
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by Crystal » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:09 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:43 am

Perhaps it is more the online culture of some of the Zen discourse, an identity as an "Zennie" where we don't worry about those small Hinayana things and go for the root.
In general though, perhaps completely refraining from the use of the pejorative and outdated word "Hinayana" might be a good start for your new forum, if you want it to flourish and grow free from the viruses of ignorance, sectarianism, and online bullying (especially from moderators) and become a relaxed and friendly environment.

http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/article/view/72/92

http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/NoHinayana.pdf

Most of us these days are aware that we can choose to refer to "Early Buddhism" or " Theravada" if we are discussing the Dharma.


:namaste:
Last edited by Crystal on Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by bokki » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:20 pm

I know my saying that will not please the majority of people here at so-called "Zen Space," who seem to have often a very nebulous relationship to Zen Practice. Another option is just to change the name and mission of this place.


yes, Jundo, u r absolutely right. i am not pleased by the words of ur last few posts.
i think they are offensive, divisive, and, francly, not true.
u are the patriarch of zen, so u know what zen is??
forget it, r oshi.

change the name and mission...LOL!

may i ask, what would be your wish, ur idea??

to endlessly discuss shikantaza, buddha, rinzai, dogen..so u will b happy as 2 the quality of our minds?

u r right, im not amused.
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burst into flames.
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:45 pm

Bokki,

Everyone is the teacher, you too! :110:
miscellaneous-dustpan-brush-sweep-sweeping-clean-gra070409_low.jpg
miscellaneous-dustpan-brush-sweep-sweeping-clean-gra070409_low.jpg (45.67 KiB) Viewed 301 times
To harmonize is to seperate, neither speech or silence, what is that?
:111:
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by jundocohen » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:50 pm

bokki wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:20 pm

to endlessly discuss shikantaza, buddha, rinzai, dogen..
Yes, in the major part of a Forum about "Zen Buddhism," one should probably be mostly focused on Zen Buddhism. In a forum about baseball, one should probably be talking mostly about home runs and batting averages, leagues and the world series, not just anything with a ball.

There can be sections for talking and shmoozing on other things.
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by fuki » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:05 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:50 pm

There can be sections for talking and shmoozing on other things.
One of the reasons I made the "anything goes" thread, so when we go off topic we might quote/post it in there instead of where we read that which arised conditioned thoughts. The mods didn't pick up that chit chat or off-topic posts could perhaps best be moved there instead locking topics or split topics. But ofcourse members could self-moderate a bit more. So that those who want to discuss "Zen Buddhism" shouldnt have to scroll past all the "lounge talk" Any brad warner or pussy zen might be best posted there too instead of creating new topics for every single discussion. Just a thought.
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:08 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:05 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:50 pm

There can be sections for talking and shmoozing on other things.
One of the reasons I made the "anything goes" thread, so when we go off topic we might quote/post it in there instead of where we read that which arised conditioned thoughts. The mods didn't pick up that chit chat or off-topic posts could perhaps best be moved there instead locking topics or split topics. But ofcourse members could self-moderate a bit more. So that those who want to discuss "Zen Buddhism" shouldnt have to scroll past all the "lounge talk" Any brad warner or pussy zen might be best posted there too instead of creating new topics for every single discussion. Just a thought.
I guess we were not really thinking of these kinds of measures but maybe it's worth considering! Thanks, f u k i!!

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by bokki » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:16 am

I must say that I am having difficulty to see how most of the comments around "Zen Space" recently have much of anything to do with "Zen" (except in the sense that "everything in the universe and then some" = "Zen"). I can't make heads or tails of many of them, and it is not because they are Koan-like.

The same problems that infected ZFI at the end are manifesting here, in my opinion. Sorry, but there is now very little discussion of "Zen" at "Zen Space" (maybe a lot of "Spacey" however).

As an example of what can be done, the moderators of the Soto Zen Buddhist group on Facebook do a very good job of keeping postings and conversation there on track about "Soto Zen Buddhism," and the same is and can be done for "Zen Buddhism" in general. Unfortunately, everything and anything vaguely "Eastern" seems to go here, and I think the "Zen" is lost in the woods. The moderators need to have the moxy to keep discussions on track about Zen (except in those sections of the Forum where wider topics are permitted).

I know my saying that will not please the majority of people here at so-called "Zen Space," who seem to have often a very nebulous relationship to Zen Practice. Another option is just to change the name and mission of this place.
i still cant believe u write so, Jundo.
i remember a thread about cancer a month or two ago.
y did u not say "SO CALLED ZEN SPACE" back then, Jundo?
u will really make me recall all contradictions u so kindly serve,
together with ur nebulous criticism of things u should not even consider.

if u think we are just a bunch of fools, y not say str8,
"You, all, are a heap of fools!"

Now, u have really made me think the following:
if i say: "my mother has cancer"
ur reaction would be,: "That is NOT zen.
My cancer is Zen, ima zen teacher!"

Jundo, i feel, personally, let down by you.

ill just stop here.
thnx Jundo.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:59 am

--- Eric H., also know as Sun Wu Kong, "an authentic genuine human being"
Birth is thus
Death is thus
Verse or no verse
What’s the fuss?

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by jundocohen » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:34 am

There are no fools, yet we all are foolish and engage in foolish behavior sometimes.
i remember a thread about cancer a month or two ago.
y did u not say "SO CALLED ZEN SPACE" back then, Jundo?
I only posted about my cancer here because each and every posting was directly about how Zen Practice, Zazen and this Path related to the waiting rooms, surgery and recovery. I would not have posted in a Zen thread for any other reason. Each and all were about this Practice when the Samsara S--- hits the Fan.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=68&hilit=tonglen

Gassho, J
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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by bokki » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:28 pm

so, 2 cut a long story short.
seeing basic emptiness, oneness is the begining of zen.

sooo, how bout eternity?

a sick view, a sickness?

a view?

lol, what have u seen to say such?

and about eternal.. sick? eternally sick?

what u saying?

thoughts,... no sight, no vision.

wait a bit, here comes eternity...LOL!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by jundocohen » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:59 am

bokki wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:28 pm
so, 2 cut a long story short.
seeing basic emptiness, oneness is the begining of zen.

sooo, how bout eternity?

a sick view, a sickness?

a view?

lol, what have u seen to say such?

and about eternal.. sick? eternally sick?

what u saying?

thoughts,... no sight, no vision.

wait a bit, here comes eternity...LOL!
St. Louis ... empty ... Superman X-Ray Vision ... Bodhidharma = Swiss Cheese ... only the holes, or the mouse in the trap? :wool:

It is also good to express things in ordinary speech, and to stay on point. When talking baseball, keep it in the ballpark. Then, one hits a home run without a bat!

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

Post by Drenpa » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:13 am

Hello all. I've read this thread with interest as well as the locked one, as I was recently accused on DW of introducing Solipsistic Nihilist views on a thread about karma, so I wanted to point out that this critique is not limited to practitioners of Zen, although I'm well aware of some of the treatment serious practitioners of your tradition have received in the past in online forums - when I saw the thread on DW referenced in the locked thread on this forum, I immediately thought the OP was referring to me, as he spoke of "purported pracitioners" from another tradition who have had this fallacy creeping into their views and I'd just gone the rounds myself, so mistakenly assumed he was on about me. He clarified he wasn't, but the other DW luminary that lit me up was - So, FWIW, nobody is especially safe from the Dharma police, regardless of tradition. That's one of the reasons I accepted the invitation to visit here, even though I'm outside of the tradition as I enjoy general dharma discussions without a focus on tradition.

As to popular zen being infected with Nihilism, I don't think I can comment in a meaningful way from outside the tradition - but I have to say it has never seemed that way to me in my exposure to Zen - but I can certainly see HOW this mistake is made by other traditions, especially those who believe in Reincarnation or where it is central, as in Tibetan Buddhism for example.

Even if an ancient and storied tradition like Zen doesn't deserve the label of Nihilistic, I can see in my own tendency to filter everything through my own very limited understanding and construct as a culprit for this kind of thinking.

To wit, if someone holds reincarnation as a central and indispensable doctrine of their own intellectual understanding, then the idea that there's a school with obvious realization that does NOT hold this view in common - it could be terrifying. I know that when I first became interested in Dharma almost 20 years ago now and was exposed to the teachings on emptiness central to all mayahana traditions, I also immediately saw this as nihilistic and quite frightening.

My former X-tian cult experience was similar in the sense that I often heard the sentiment "Well, if there is no god, then why live a moral life at all? And no, Kant was not helpful for these folks.

Strong attachment to one's ideas as diamond truth does this, and Buddhists of any stripe who are not 100% confident with experience born of practice in their own tradition are subject to the same reaction I had to ideas around emptiness when I first heard of it. I can see how someone with a strong belief in Karma and with their OWN unrealized and unexpressed tendencies towards nihilistic view may find a tradition with no need for some kind of stated and clear precept of continuity beyond this life, might be terrified - OR, without the view of reincarnation, might feel that there is no understanding or need for karma, much like X-tians who feel that if they suddenly no longer believed in God and Christ etc., would feel free to do whatever they wanted without consequene - when in fact, it's not that way at all - as someone like me who lost my faith in god and christianity completely discovers here on the other side, even before meeting the teachings of the buddha.

I know this isn't lost on anyone but just wanted to point it out again that even in a tradition such as the Tibetan schools where one should have confidence in the tradition or move along, it's possible. Not saying that is the only reason someone might accuse practitioners of Zen to have nihilistic view, but it may be a strong factor.

I think if someone is fixated on this and there really is no precedent in the tradition, simply misunderstanding from the outside, then it only speaks to their own fears and misconceptions, obviously. FWIW.

I also think it is important to say that I don't personally have a problem with the OP who raised this issue on DW - In fact, I took him at face value and really took a step back b/c where others might see a rabble-rouser, I see a mensch, but that's just how it goes and ymmv of course as anyone on this forum will doubtless be much more familiar with those who may have inadvertantly or with some agenda, cast aspersions on your storied and ancient tradition in the past. I realize that there is history here, but I've personally never experienced this from the OP in question, actually the opposite. But that's a view thing and can be explainable by my different focus as one not from the tradition.

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