Is “Pop” Zen Infected with Nihilism/Eternalism?

[fuki]

“Nothing Holy, Just Vast Empty Space” as my signature text on Dharmawheel. I am ready to do battle with all the forces of eSangha and ZFI as well as DW and Z1S (Zen One Space)

I'll see your Bodhidharma and raise you a Hui Hai (dont know why since I dont see whats to assert or negate)

Q: What does it mean when the sutra says: "The sound of discussion has ceased, and the role of thought is done"? 
A: Words are used to manifest the doctrine. After understanding the doctrine, then, words are useless. The doctrine is void, voidness is the Tao, and the Tao is without words. This is the meaning of "The sound of discussion has ceased". Since the real meaning of the doctrine does not give rise to a single thought or perception and because no thought or perception arises, it is unborn. Furthermore, because it is unborn, then the fundamental nature of all forms is void, Next, since the fundamental nature of all forms is void, then everything in the world is non-existent. Finally, since all things are fundamentally non-existent, "the role of thought is done".
------------------

Q: Is the awareness that form is void and that the worldly is holy the same as Sudden Enlightenment? 
A: Yes!

Q: Just what is the meaning of "form is void and the worldly is holy"? 
A: The mind defiled is the same as form, but the mind undefiled is void. Similarly, the mind defiled is worldly, but the mind undefiled is holy. To say it in another way, the Absolute Void mysteriously exists as form, but because its "form" cannot be grasped, it is void. Here, when we refer to "void", we are speaking of the voidness of Self-Nature. We are not referring, in this instance, to the voidness which occurs after the destruction of form. Similarly, when we refer to "form", in this context, we mean the form of the void-nature of the Absolute Void; but we are not speaking, in the usual sense, of form that creates other forms.
--------------------

I can also quote a famous pop zen teacher (advaita) but the subforum has not been created yet.

[Great Sage EofH]

I am going to demand a subfurum for Pop Zen on this forum and on Dharmawheel. Since everyone participating in the discussions seem to agree it’s such a dominating force and steering the Dharma away from the true and accepted doctrines. We might as well debate it and put a bullet in it. I’ll play the Devils Advicate to get the ball rolling, since the many pervasive adherents of this abomination will soon step forward to my defence.

My first foray into battle has been started, I quoted Bodhidharma’s “Nothing Holy, Just Vast Empty Space” as my signature text on Dharmawheel. I am ready to do battle with all the forces of eSangha and ZFI as well as DW and Z1S (Zen One Space)

I was just informed the concerned parties have brought in the heavy artillery: Whack-a-Mole Security. The have named their Operation “Pop Goes the Weasel”. Whack a Mole is going to need more hammers, we are Everywhere (diabolical laughter) Bwahahagahsha!!!

[Fruitzilla]

I am going to demand a subfurum for Pop Zen on this forum and on Dharmawheel. Since everyone participating in the discussions seem to agree it’s such a dominating force and steering the Dharma away from the true and accepted doctrines. We might as well debate it and put a bullet in it. I’ll play the Devils Advicate to get the ball rolling, since the many pervasive adherents of this abomination will soon step forward to my defence.

My first foray into battle has been started, I quoted Bodhidharma’s “Nothing Holy, Just Vast Empty Space” as my signature text on Dharmawheel. I am ready to do battle with all the forces of eSangha and ZFI as well as DW and Z1S (Zen One Space)

A Pop Zen forum would be hilarious. I'm all for it!
Can I have a Tibetan in my sig?

All the conventions of outlook, practice and behavior
Are, in terms of what is natural, just intellectual chaff.
Let correctives aimed at attention subside into space.
With the chosen discipline of not being concerned about wandering,
Just let things be —don’t change anything at all.
In a space beyond all complications and effort Lies a great treasure —no thought, no thinking.

[Meido]

A Pop Zen forum would be hilarious. I'm all for it!

Already exists...it's called the "Lounge" subforum.

~ Meido

[Fruitzilla]

A Pop Zen forum would be hilarious. I'm all for it!

Already exists...it's called the "Lounge" subforum.

~ Meido

Dang! You're right!

[KeithA]

A Pop Zen forum would be hilarious. I'm all for it!

Already exists...it's called the "Lounge" subforum.

~ Meido

Oh snap!

[Great Sage EofH]

Conflate as much TibetN jargon as you like!! Lulz

[lindama]

My first foray into battle has been started, I quoted Bodhidharma’s “Nothing Holy, Just Vast Empty Space” as my signature text on Dharmawheel. I am ready to do battle with all the forces of eSangha and ZFI as well as DW and Z1S (Zen One Space)

stop right there....

http://zenosaurus.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... -22-i.html

8— I Don't Know—The Zenosaurus Course in Koans
I Don’t Know

This is probably the core of freedom, to rest in the uncertain, before certainty has been constructed. Not knowing is something the mind often dreads. It’s easy to dread not knowing. As a child whenever the teacher asked something I would say “I know, I know” and life seemed to be a test in which if I were clever I could get enough right answers and I could find something to rely on.

The Koan

Bodhidharma’s Vast Emptiness

The Emperor asked the great master Bodhidharma, “What is the number one principle of the holy teaching?”
Bodhidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing holy.”
“Who are you, standing in front of me?” asked the emperor.
“I don’t know,” said Bodhidharma.
The Emperor didn’t get it.

When a baby arrives she doesn’t know things and we don’t know much about what she is going to do. If you take her to see a rose, her eyes get big; for her everything is rose, and alive, like a shout. Later when the child is grown she might think she knows what a rose is and remember her childhood with nostalgia—the time when the universe was alive with no knowing.

Old map makers made things up—‘here be dragons’, they said ‘and here, where the wavy blue lines angle sharply down, you fall off the edge of the world. Don’t go there.’ We make things up to help us to navigate, and it’s a valiant attempt. When I was fishing on the Great Barrier Reef, there were fisherman who believed in a floating reef and gave you warnings about anchoring on it. Even then it was fairly well known that coral is heavier than water and grows up from the ocean bed. But the charts weren’t very good, sea and weather are confusing, and if you run across a reef where you didn’t expect to find it, then perhaps it floats about, like The Flying Dutchman. I believe that medieval philosophers called that ‘saving the appearances.” In medicine, confirmation error means looking for what you expect. It occurs when this morning you have treated five people in the Emergency Room with flu and a sixth person arrives with some of the symptoms of the very beginning of flu and gets treated for flu when she is actually suffering from aspirin overdose.

Instead of making up explanations that the expected thing is the right thing it can be interesting to go into situations without a preset attitude, without knowing what is right and how things should turn out.
.......
~John Tarrant

[fuki]

Bodhidharma's "don't know" is like asking where do you find yourself? "don't know" = non-abiding mind.

The koan has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing ofcourse, it's poison not freedom. Clearly there is wrong behaviour and anyone is free to say so. If the behaviour wasn't so divisive and regrettable, such claims about pop-zen" and the idiocracy that there is no liberstion outside of buddhadharma would actually be rather humorous, in fact there is no dharma, no religion, that is all contrivance of the human persona, and childishly naive at best.The problem is as long as one is relying on the exclusive belief structure that is characteristic of that human intellect, they will be trapped in these limited views, and end up serving the darker factions, despite their claims to be "liberated". Of course, try telling that to them and they will scoff. The illusion of "right view" is a clever disguise to excuse divisive bad conduct, I point it out, fabricating division is the human cancer, it is dark and should never be bypassed with the sense of "we cannot know"

[lindama]

help me out Fuki. there is some good stuff here, but I'm beyond sorting it. Usually you can articulate on my intuitions very well. what's up with this?

that's the great part about koans.... from where I come from, ppl are not afraid of talking about koans out loud.... it is tedious to listen to sort the wheat and the chaff, but I've come to see the wisdom in it.

You have a great talent to articulate my sparse comments.... except for this time... there seems to be extra weather int he way... or I am just too slow to get it. I'm dizzy with charged words like poison, divisive, regrettable, idiocy that there is no liberation outside of buddhadharma ... are you talking about so-called religion? I'd have to agree. What is it that takes us beyond zen or any other thing?
linda

Bodhidharma's "don't know" is like asking where do you find yourself? "don't know" = non-abiding mind.

The koan has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing ofcourse, it's poison not freedom. Clearly there is wrong behaviour and anyone is free to say so. If the behaviour wasn't so divisive and regrettable, such claims about pop-zen" and the idiocracy that there is no liberstion outside of buddhadharma would actually be rather humorous, in fact there is no dharma, no religion, that is all contrivance of the human persona, and childishly naive at best.The problem is as long as one is relying on the exclusive belief structure that is characteristic of that human intellect, they will be trapped in these limited views, and end up serving the darker factions, despite their claims to be "liberated". Of course, try telling that to them and they will scoff. The illusion of "right view" is a clever disguise to excuse divisive bad conduct, I point it out, fabricating division is the human cancer, it is dark and should never be bypassed with the sense of "we cannot know"

[lindama]

what is the source for your quotes? there's the tao, there's being beyond words and pharases.... all good at the end of the day. it seems to be swimming in the same pond... Koans are an invitation Fuki. how do you hear it?

I dunno, ofc, the dharma is unborn... still, it has shoes and walks on the ground.... who is negating this?? what is the source of your quote? we can't be mixing orthodoxy.... we can look at each for what it is.
linda

“Nothing Holy, Just Vast Empty Space” as my signature text on Dharmawheel. I am ready to do battle with all the forces of eSangha and ZFI as well as DW and Z1S (Zen One Space)

I'll see your Bodhidharma and raise you a Hui Hai (dont know why since I dont see whats to assert or negate)

Q: What does it mean when the sutra says: "The sound of discussion has ceased, and the role of thought is done"? 
A: Words are used to manifest the doctrine. After understanding the doctrine, then, words are useless. The doctrine is void, voidness is the Tao, and the Tao is without words. This is the meaning of "The sound of discussion has ceased". Since the real meaning of the doctrine does not give rise to a single thought or perception and because no thought or perception arises, it is unborn. Furthermore, because it is unborn, then the fundamental nature of all forms is void, Next, since the fundamental nature of all forms is void, then everything in the world is non-existent. Finally, since all things are fundamentally non-existent, "the role of thought is done".
------------------

Q: Is the awareness that form is void and that the worldly is holy the same as Sudden Enlightenment? 
A: Yes!

Q: Just what is the meaning of "form is void and the worldly is holy"? 
A: The mind defiled is the same as form, but the mind undefiled is void. Similarly, the mind defiled is worldly, but the mind undefiled is holy. To say it in another way, the Absolute Void mysteriously exists as form, but because its "form" cannot be grasped, it is void. Here, when we refer to "void", we are speaking of the voidness of Self-Nature. We are not referring, in this instance, to the voidness which occurs after the destruction of form. Similarly, when we refer to "form", in this context, we mean the form of the void-nature of the Absolute Void; but we are not speaking, in the usual sense, of form that creates other forms.
--------------------

I can also quote a famous pop zen teacher (advaita) but the subforum has not been created yet.

[fuki]

help me out Fuki. there is some good stuff here, but I'm beyond sorting it. Usually you can articulate on my intuitions very well. what's up with this?

that's the great part about koans.... from where I come from, ppl are not afraid of talking about koans out loud.... it is tedious to listen to sort the wheat and the chaff, but I've come to see the wisdom in it.

You have a great talent to articulate my sparse comments.... except for this time... there seems to be extra weather int he way... or I am just too slow to get it. I'm dizzy with charged words like poison, divisive, regrettable, idiocy that there is no liberation outside of buddhadharma ... are you talking about so-called religion? I'd have to agree. What is it that takes us beyond zen or any other thing?
linda

You're not slow Linda, your feeling is right there is some extra weather, so I won't bother you with any of it. Just ignore it. I agree about talking open, love it how guo gu spontaneously does it, it immediately stops minds, wonderful. The quoted bit was just a bit of fun with Eric, it was from Hui Hai's "entering the tao of sudden enlightenment" a very nihilistic piece of work and eternity too!

[Meido]

Any more discussion RE the question in the OP i.e. to what extent do popular notions of Zen Buddhism tend toward the so-called extreme views of nihilism or eternalism, non-existence or existence, etc.?

We might extend the question to encompass popular notions RE Buddhism in general...

[fuki]

Any more discussion RE the question in the OP i.e. to what extent do popular notions of Zen Buddhism tend toward the so-called extreme views of nihilism or eternalism, non-existence or existence, etc.?

We might extend the question to encompass popular notions RE Buddhism in general...

I think the question whether one should say or not say something, or how and when do we say it if we THINK any practisioner has these views is a better one, at least I find that angle on the discussion to be of importance.

[Meido]

Leaving aside teachers and their responsibility to pull out the nails and knock out the wedges: i take your meaning to refer to modes of expression we see in online forums. By all means start a new topic to discuss that...

[Great Sage EofH]

My first foray into battle has been started, I quoted Bodhidharma’s “Nothing Holy, Just Vast Empty Space” as my signature text on Dharmawheel. I am ready to do battle with all the forces of eSangha and ZFI as well as DW and Z1S (Zen One Space)

stop right there....

http://zenosaurus.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... -22-i.html

8— I Don't Know—The Zenosaurus Course in Koans
I Don’t Know

This is probably the core of freedom, to rest in the uncertain, before certainty has been constructed. Not knowing is something the mind often dreads. It’s easy to dread not knowing. As a child whenever the teacher asked something I would say “I know, I know” and life seemed to be a test in which if I were clever I could get enough right answers and I could find something to rely on.

The Koan

Bodhidharma’s Vast Emptiness

The Emperor asked the great master Bodhidharma, “What is the number one principle of the holy teaching?”
Bodhidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing holy.”
“Who are you, standing in front of me?” asked the emperor.
“I don’t know,” said Bodhidharma.
The Emperor didn’t get it.

When a baby arrives she doesn’t know things and we don’t know much about what she is going to do. If you take her to see a rose, her eyes get big; for her everything is rose, and alive, like a shout. Later when the child is grown she might think she knows what a rose is and remember her childhood with nostalgia—the time when the universe was alive with no knowing.

Old map makers made things up—‘here be dragons’, they said ‘and here, where the wavy blue lines angle sharply down, you fall off the edge of the world. Don’t go there.’ We make things up to help us to navigate, and it’s a valiant attempt. When I was fishing on the Great Barrier Reef, there were fisherman who believed in a floating reef and gave you warnings about anchoring on it. Even then it was fairly well known that coral is heavier than water and grows up from the ocean bed. But the charts weren’t very good, sea and weather are confusing, and if you run across a reef where you didn’t expect to find it, then perhaps it floats about, like The Flying Dutchman. I believe that medieval philosophers called that ‘saving the appearances.” In medicine, confirmation error means looking for what you expect. It occurs when this morning you have treated five people in the Emergency Room with flu and a sixth person arrives with some of the symptoms of the very beginning of flu and gets treated for flu when she is actually suffering from aspirin overdose.

Instead of making up explanations that the expected thing is the right thing it can be interesting to go into situations without a preset attitude, without knowing what is right and how things should turn out.
.......
~John Tarrant

Thanks Linda!

[Dan74]

To go back to the OP, my sense is that there is a bit of this infection here and there and it is reflected in a tendency to engage on a "high" and abstract level - "emptiness sickness", if you will, and avoid the nitty gritty of our daily struggles.

Perhaps it is due to catching a glimpse of emptiness and hanging on to it, as a life-buoy, while one is drowning in the hurly-burly of the samsaric currents and never actually learns to swim and navigate them? I don't know.

Perhaps it is more the online culture of some of the Zen discourse, an identity as an "Zennie" where we don't worry about those small Hinayana things and go for the root.

Perhaps it is not an infection at all and the interwebs have more realised Zennies that I gave credit for and I am just the odd dunce wondering why I still get anxious and fearful and embarrass myself daily.

But be that as it may, I suspect there are a fair few folks who resonate with Zen and who chance upon some of the Zen discussions and can make neither heads or tails of them, wondering if they are spoken by actual human beings who eat and shit, ache and feel lonely and lost, struggle with habitual patterns, love and lie, sacrifice and betray.

[Larry]

[fuki]

To go back to the OP, my sense is that there is a bit of this infection here and there and it is reflected in a tendency to engage on a "high" and abstract level - "emptiness sickness", if you will, and avoid the nitty gritty of our daily struggles.

Perhaps it is due to catching a glimpse of emptiness and hanging on to it, as a life-buoy, while one is drowning in the hurly-burly of the samsaric currents and never actually learns to swim and navigate them? I don't know.

Perhaps it is more the online culture of some of the Zen discourse, an identity as an "Zennie" where we don't worry about those small Hinayana things and go for the root.

Speaking from the horse's mouth, I "suffered" from "emptiness sickness"/spiritual bypassing for at least a decade, it is very much like sleep-walking, what would you do if you find your wife sleep walking in the middle of the night?

Perhaps it is not an infection at all and the interwebs have more realised Zennies that I gave credit for and I am just the odd dunce wondering why I still get anxious and fearful and embarrass myself daily.

But be that as it may, I suspect there are a fair few folks who resonate with Zen and who chance upon some of the Zen discussions and can make neither heads or tails of them, wondering if they are spoken by actual human beings who eat and shit, ache and feel lonely and lost, struggle with habitual patterns, love and lie, sacrifice and betray.

Why compare?
I remember the early days on zfi, were specifically 1 teacher and a group of "somebodies" in zen, or the real zen practisioners had clearly determined and decided among themselves who were the somebodies and nobodies of zen, well things aren't always how we think they are to throw in another cliche, and another one; don't belittle the sky by looking through a pipe. Everyone is different and has different lives, just basic cause and effect, afterall there are no wise and foolish people, only wise and foolish activity (seen from the pov of zen conditioning/brainwashing)

[Dan74]

This is all good and fine but doesn't really address my post, F u k i.

I wasn't talking about who is and isn't a real Zen practitioner but more along the lines of what makes a discussion meaningful and useful to us in the context of life-practice and what makes for ghostcave talk, a bit of lazy splashing around or worse, pretense.