self-attachment in posts

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lindama
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by lindama » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:43 am

so, about dropping attachments.... "I honestly think we were all being very cynical, and I think it's the biggest wakeup call ever..."


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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:45 am

bodhi wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:00 am
guo gu wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:46 pm
thanks for all of your posts and honesty, guys.

to recognize self-attachment, here're a start of a list on how to recognize it. the poster tend to (be):

defensive
dogmatic
rigid in opinions/views
exaggerated
happy when other agree, defensive when other don't agree
repetitive in positing his/her views
narrow minded
miss what is being said/asked
praise oneself and criticize others
random, disconnected to others
insensitive to others
take sides

there are others, like using harsh language, etc. but feel free to ad to the list or add examples.

someone could also start a list of characteristics of unself-centered posts.

it's a practice... we all can benefit.

be well,
guo gu
Selfish/selfless is relatively easy to intuitively sense. I doubt making a list of which characteristics are naughty or nice could help much, other than to perhaps polarize characteristics and separate them from the complex situations in which they may occur.
bodhi wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:00 am
guo gu wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:46 pm
thanks for all of your posts and honesty, guys.

to recognize self-attachment, here're a start of a list on how to recognize it. the poster tend to (be):

defensive
dogmatic
rigid in opinions/views
exaggerated
happy when other agree, defensive when other don't agree
repetitive in positing his/her views
narrow minded
miss what is being said/asked
praise oneself and criticize others
random, disconnected to others
insensitive to others
take sides

there are others, like using harsh language, etc. but feel free to ad to the list or add examples.

someone could also start a list of characteristics of unself-centered posts.

it's a practice... we all can benefit.

be well,
guo gu
Selfish/selfless is relatively easy to intuitively sense. I doubt making a list of which characteristics are naughty or nice could help much, other than to perhaps polarize characteristics and separate them from the complex situations in which they may occur.
I think it's a good list and describes many of posts one sees online. To me the list is more about awareness and bringing something useful to the table, so we can identifying these processes and characteristics at work in ourselves.

It is easy to see it in other people's posts by others and harder in the ones by ourselves. I wish we could see our old posts without realising they are ours and see this stuff at work more.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:54 am

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:45 am
I wish we could see our old posts without realising they are ours and see this stuff at work more.
Memory is a good servant but a bad master...
1e759642f9b85269eb0b35a9fad455d7.jpg
1e759642f9b85269eb0b35a9fad455d7.jpg (58.16 KiB) Viewed 222 times
:109:

Image

Image
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:04 pm

Oh great! So awaken and then there's no problem with selfseeking posts.

Thank you for that helpfil advice, Fuki.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:16 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:04 pm
Oh great! So awaken and then there's no problem with selfseeking posts.

Thank you for that helpfil advice, Fuki.
Sorry Dan :hide:

I dont know what "awakening" is, just thought I shared how memory and the identification/attachment to it maintains the idea of our so called past identities, and thus ofcourse the present/future identity. When I lay in deep sleep I have no idea who I am or am not, thus this fictional character is momentary and arises due to conditions as far as I can see. Still responsible for its activities ofcourse, sorry for being unhelpful.
2018-03-29 14.19.14.png
2018-03-29 14.19.14.png (80.36 KiB) Viewed 196 times
Good expedient right? Thought it be helpful not being attached or whatever to what we said in the past, foolish, wise or fluff.
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by bodhi » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:15 pm

lindama wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:37 am
it's not hard to see most of civilization as possessing a child's consciousness in part... we have many voices within.
Yes... and yes indeed. It’s a mistake to believe we are rational beings.
My zen teacher used to say, we are not a self-improvement project. thats a koan, nothing more.
The best expression of religion is nothing more than learning to be more selfless and less selfish.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by bodhi » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:21 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:45 am
It is easy to see it in other people's posts by others and harder in the ones by ourselves.
On the contrary, we can only guess at what’s behind the posts of others. We know what’s behind our own.

:106:

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:01 pm

Sorry, Marcel..

I tried to say above that old posts we don't readily identify with, may expose this selfseeking dynamics at work and shed light on the here and now. Like seeing yourself as not yourself.

I guess your post struck me as a very generic pointer, rather than addressing the issue at hand.
fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:16 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:04 pm
Oh great! So awaken and then there's no problem with selfseeking posts.

Thank you for that helpfil advice, Fuki.
Sorry Dan :hide:

I dont know what "awakening" is, just thought I shared how memory and the identification/attachment to it maintains the idea of our so called past identities, and thus ofcourse the present/future identity. When I lay in deep sleep I have no idea who I am or am not, thus this fictional character is momentary and arises due to conditions as far as I can see. Still responsible for its activities ofcourse, sorry for being unhelpful.

2018-03-29 14.19.14.png

Good expedient right? Thought it be helpful not being attached or whatever to what we said in the past, foolish, wise or fluff.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by guo gu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am

children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:05 am

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:01 pm
I guess your post struck me as a very generic pointer, rather than addressing the issue at hand.
No probs amigo, it's rare that two arrows meet in mid-air, especially for two quote "unenlightened sobs" /quote like us right? :hatsoff:
:115:
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:05 am

guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
Thanks for the candy. :D
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm

guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:18 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
I see GG's words more in the maturity of seeing through self-referential views, memories, desires, fantasies of attainment, of the buddhadharma etc. A great peace enters those who understand buddhadharma is a tool, a device, often obsolete. For instance this is what jihad means in another religion. ;)
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:34 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:18 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
I see GG's words more in the maturity of seeing through self-referential views, memories, desires, fantasies of attainment, of the buddhadharma etc. A great peace enters those who understand buddhadharma is a tool, a device, often obsolete. For instance this is what jihad means in another religion. ;)
I don't see where he says it's often obsolete. I see him saying we're all children who need the buddhadharma to remind us we can't possibly think for ourselves. It's a common theme in religion, which I'm always amazed by. I guess we all need a daddy....
But seriously, did I miss something in the thread?

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:40 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:34 pm

I don't see where he says it's often obsolete. I see him saying we're all children who need the buddhadharma to remind us we can't possibly think for ourselves. It's a common theme in religion, which I'm always amazed by. I guess we all need a daddy....
But seriously, did I miss something in the thread?
Always interesting to see how interpretation varies depending on the reader, I didn't get that from GG's words at all. Fun innit? ps he included himself too in the children reference ;)

Can't say I know what GG meant, just sharing my angle on it, but whether I got GG's message or not, still doesn't matter for it's still a fantasy the conditioned mind adds to perception, not good or bad, right or wrong, just that.
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:01 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
I thought Guo Gu was riffing on the Parable of the Burning House from the Lotus Sutra, described here
.

(quote below)

While I think I take your point that we cannot delegate the responsibility for our lives and liberation to anyone else in a childlike manner, but firmly grasp the wheel with both hands, in a deep sense I feel we don't have have much of a clue about what's going on. We have frameworks and narratives, but sooner or later they come crashing down. Doesn't mean we should give up and wait for the Buddha/Guru/Sifu/Roshi to save us of course! I guess this is where Great Faith comes in... Hmmm....
The house of a kind father catches on fire while his children are playing inside. When they ignore their father’s pleas to escape, he tells them that outside the house there are three carts awaiting them: one pulled by a sheep; one, by a deer; and one, by an ox. This promise causes the children to leave the house, where they find a single cart, drawn by an ox. The Buddha explains that the burning house is saṃsāra, the realm of rebirth; he is the father, and the children are the sentient beings of the universe, so absorbed in the world that they ignore its dangers. Knowing the predilections and capacities of sentient beings, the Buddha lures them to various paths to escape saṃsāra by offering them something that appeals to their limited aspirations. However, this is his skillful method. When they have set out on that path, or even reached its final destination, he reveals that there is only one path and one goal, far superior to what he had taught before: the single vehicle to buddhahood.
The Buddha explains that the burning house is saṃsāra, the realm of rebirth; he is the father, and the children are the sentient beings of the universe, so absorbed in the world that they ignore its dangers.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:26 pm

Thanks Dan, didn't have that association, forgot about that nice metaphor.

Funny enough though, no (sentient) being ever entered Nirvana, or Samsara.

Who's escaping? :558:
hui hai wrote:Q: In the future, there will be many followers who hold mixed views. How can we live together with them?
A: You can be on friendly terms with them, but do not follow them in their pursuits. That is why one sutra says: "It follows worldly affairs, but its nature is permanent." Students of the Way should not brag that only they themselves possess the causes and conditions for Liberation and Enlightenment. Do not disrespect those who do not study the Dharma, and never boast about your own merit. Do not downgrade others' goodness and capabilities, and never expose the faults of others. Rather, examine yourself! If you do this, you will meet with no obstacles anywhere; and happiness will, quite naturally, ensue. Let me epitomize all this in a gatha:

Patience is the foremost way,
But first let go of ego and personality.
Just do not form concepts about anything --
This is the true Body of Buddha.

The Diamond Sutra says: "If a Bodhisattva knows the non-ego Dharma completely, the Tathagata declares him to be a true Bodhisattva." The sutra also declares: "If you neither take nor reject anything, you are freed from the Wheel-of-Birth-and-Death forever. To practice non-dwelling everywhere is to be a real son of the Buddhas." The Mahaparinirvana Sutra says: "When the Tathagata attained Nirvana, he freed himself from the Wheel-of-Birth-and-Death forever." Let me epitomize all this in some additional gathas:

I am wonderfully fine in my mind
And feel not defiled when abused.
In "no words" there's no right or wrong;
Samsara, Nirvana -- the same.
Recognizing my own sect,
I ignore petty weeds and grass.
All false thoughts discriminate,
But the worldly do not understand.
Hopefully all people in the future
Will rid their minds of weeds and grass.
I am wonderfully free in my mind;
With "no words" there's nothing there.
Knowing liberation and freedom,
I wander easily everywhere.
With "no words" and still all day long,
I focus on the Doctrine each moment.
To see the Tao naturally
Ends the birth-and-death cycle.
All my circumstances are wonderful:
Old clothes, simple food are enough;
Knowing fame and wealth are both false,
I do not cheat in the world.
Meeting people, I do not speak,
So they all say I am foolish.
Manifestly dull in appearance,
I am crystal-bright in my mind,
Holding Rahula's recondite practice,
That the worldly can't understand.
Sir Bob wrote: Essentially, the practice of non-dwelling, or non-abiding, consists of a sustained refusal to grant reality to that which is not real, or to fixate attention on any of what changes, including one’s transient moods, hopes, desires, fears, memories, schemes, or regrets. In other words, it is refraining from clinging to any mental or emotional formations which would lead to the fabrication of a separate and enduring self-sense. In practice terms, it represents “non-meditation” in the sense of simply not indulging the urge to obscure effortless natural recognition (timeless awareness) with conceptual designations and fantasies of interpretation on perception.

Typically, we tend to blame external circumstances, people, and events for our sense of chronic dissatisfaction. However, a comprehensive investigation of the mechanism of our stress and suffering reveals that it is not external phenomena that are the source of our distress. Rather, it is our fixation on them that keeps us locked in a cycle of craving and aversion. Consequently, the natural remedy is to interrupt the chain of causation which leads to attachment, clinging, fixation.
https://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.c ... -dwelling/

Allright, sorry for all the associative quotes. :111:
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:21 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:01 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
I thought Guo Gu was riffing on the Parable of the Burning House from the Lotus Sutra, described here
.

(quote below)

While I think I take your point that we cannot delegate the responsibility for our lives and liberation to anyone else in a childlike manner, but firmly grasp the wheel with both hands, in a deep sense I feel we don't have have much of a clue about what's going on. We have frameworks and narratives, but sooner or later they come crashing down. Doesn't mean we should give up and wait for the Buddha/Guru/Sifu/Roshi to save us of course! I guess this is where Great Faith comes in... Hmmm....
The house of a kind father catches on fire while his children are playing inside. When they ignore their father’s pleas to escape, he tells them that outside the house there are three carts awaiting them: one pulled by a sheep; one, by a deer; and one, by an ox. This promise causes the children to leave the house, where they find a single cart, drawn by an ox. The Buddha explains that the burning house is saṃsāra, the realm of rebirth; he is the father, and the children are the sentient beings of the universe, so absorbed in the world that they ignore its dangers. Knowing the predilections and capacities of sentient beings, the Buddha lures them to various paths to escape saṃsāra by offering them something that appeals to their limited aspirations. However, this is his skillful method. When they have set out on that path, or even reached its final destination, he reveals that there is only one path and one goal, far superior to what he had taught before: the single vehicle to buddhahood.
The Buddha explains that the burning house is saṃsāra, the realm of rebirth; he is the father, and the children are the sentient beings of the universe, so absorbed in the world that they ignore its dangers.
Are you riffing on one of your own posts here with the wheel reference? :)

I also think we don't have much of a clue about what is going on, but who does? Guo, Meido, Brad, Jundo, sir Bob? Or do we need to turn to examples further in the past, who are more perfect or enlightened and luckily also dead, so they can't disappoint anymore?

The main question I want to ask here, I guess, is: do you want to have answers, or do you want to have questions? Which of the two is alive, and which is dead?

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:25 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:40 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:34 pm

I don't see where he says it's often obsolete. I see him saying we're all children who need the buddhadharma to remind us we can't possibly think for ourselves. It's a common theme in religion, which I'm always amazed by. I guess we all need a daddy....
But seriously, did I miss something in the thread?
Always interesting to see how interpretation varies depending on the reader, I didn't get that from GG's words at all. Fun innit? ps he included himself too in the children reference ;)

Can't say I know what GG meant, just sharing my angle on it, but whether I got GG's message or not, still doesn't matter for it's still a fantasy the conditioned mind adds to perception, not good or bad, right or wrong, just that.
Yup, quite interesting! I must admit to using false modesty sometimes when attempting to teach, so I won't let myself be dragged into that quagmire ;)
I'm sure Guo will be back to elaborate anyway, I'm curious what he will say.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:49 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:21 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:01 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:39 am
children need reminders. we're all children...

buddhadharma is meant for children. when a child cries, one can take even a piece of garbage and dangle it around and the child stops crying.

smiles,
guo gu
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
I thought Guo Gu was riffing on the Parable of the Burning House from the Lotus Sutra, described here
.

(quote below)

While I think I take your point that we cannot delegate the responsibility for our lives and liberation to anyone else in a childlike manner, but firmly grasp the wheel with both hands, in a deep sense I feel we don't have have much of a clue about what's going on. We have frameworks and narratives, but sooner or later they come crashing down. Doesn't mean we should give up and wait for the Buddha/Guru/Sifu/Roshi to save us of course! I guess this is where Great Faith comes in... Hmmm....
The house of a kind father catches on fire while his children are playing inside. When they ignore their father’s pleas to escape, he tells them that outside the house there are three carts awaiting them: one pulled by a sheep; one, by a deer; and one, by an ox. This promise causes the children to leave the house, where they find a single cart, drawn by an ox. The Buddha explains that the burning house is saṃsāra, the realm of rebirth; he is the father, and the children are the sentient beings of the universe, so absorbed in the world that they ignore its dangers. Knowing the predilections and capacities of sentient beings, the Buddha lures them to various paths to escape saṃsāra by offering them something that appeals to their limited aspirations. However, this is his skillful method. When they have set out on that path, or even reached its final destination, he reveals that there is only one path and one goal, far superior to what he had taught before: the single vehicle to buddhahood.
The Buddha explains that the burning house is saṃsāra, the realm of rebirth; he is the father, and the children are the sentient beings of the universe, so absorbed in the world that they ignore its dangers.
Are you riffing on one of your own posts here with the wheel reference? :)

I also think we don't have much of a clue about what is going on, but who does? Guo, Meido, Brad, Jundo, sir Bob? Or do we need to turn to examples further in the past, who are more perfect or enlightened and luckily also dead, so they can't disappoint anymore?

The main question I want to ask here, I guess, is: do you want to have answers, or do you want to have questions? Which of the two is alive, and which is dead?
Not consciously! Took me a few moments to get what you were referring to.. Funny!

Self-reliance is very important, IMO, as is trust. I mean, a teacher, whom we trust to care about our welfare and to be able to give appropriate guidance.

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