self-attachment in posts

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fuki
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:25 pm
I'm sure Guo will be back to elaborate anyway, I'm curious what he will say.
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win-win
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Anders
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Anders » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:47 pm

guo gu wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:46 pm
thanks for all of your posts and honesty, guys.

to recognize self-attachment, here're a start of a list on how to recognize it. the poster tend to (be):

defensive
dogmatic
rigid in opinions/views
exaggerated
happy when other agree, defensive when other don't agree
repetitive in positing his/her views
narrow minded
miss what is being said/asked
praise oneself and criticize others
random, disconnected to others
insensitive to others
take sides

there are others, like using harsh language, etc. but feel free to ad to the list or add examples.

someone could also start a list of characteristics of unself-centered posts.

it's a practice... we all can benefit.

be well,
guo gu
I don't think a list for spotting it in others is particularly good practice. I'd love a list for how to spot it in oneself though.

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Anders
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Anders » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:58 pm

For me, although I am not very good at living up to it, I find it useful to hold up "no position" as the gold standard and then see where I am in contrast to that. The faults of attachment are, I find, generally relatively to how important I find this position.

At the same time, I have no interest in being a person of no position. This is to me a bit of a kop out and, when it comes to my own person, hardly believable. No, for my own sanity's sake, I must assume I take positions even in the light of the gold standard of having no position, that though I aspire to be selfless, I inevitably bring my own vested interests into the matter.

The dance then, for me, is to see how I hold the position as I put it forward. There is a practise of sincerity in it for me to show my investment in a given position as I put it forward.

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Larry
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Larry » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:09 pm

Anders wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:47 pm
I don't think a list for spotting it in others is particularly good practice. I'd love a list for how to spot it in oneself though.
I rely on a very forthright daughter :D

I'm not sure it makes any difference :lol:

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KeithA
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by KeithA » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:22 pm

Anders wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:58 pm
For me, although I am not very good at living up to it, I find it useful to hold up "no position" as the gold standard and then see where I am in contrast to that. The faults of attachment are, I find, generally relatively to how important I find this position.

At the same time, I have no interest in being a person of no position. This is to me a bit of a kop out and, when it comes to my own person, hardly believable. No, for my own sanity's sake, I must assume I take positions even in the light of the gold standard of having no position, that though I aspire to be selfless, I inevitably bring my own vested interests into the matter.

The dance then, for me, is to see how I hold the position as I put it forward. There is a practise of sincerity in it for me to show my investment in a given position as I put it forward.
What a wonderful post! I love my own story, even when it is pretty much bullshit. My humble tradition calls this "don't know". I stake out positions all the time, but that's just my stuff. Some might be useful, some not.

I am tasked with giving orientation for newcomers to our temple. Initially, I was very concerned about saying the right things. Now, I just talk. I have no control over what is received and what is rejected. For me, that is the dance. Don't be an ass, but don't worry about being super correct, either. Just talk and trust the practice.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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guo gu
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by guo gu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:56 pm

Anders wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:47 pm
I don't think a list for spotting it in others is particularly good practice. I'd love a list for how to spot it in oneself though.
as i see it, posting is a practice--for self and others. the forum is public, so it requires a level of civility.
gg

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by guo gu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:04 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
children and the stopping of crying is a metaphor.
everyone is entitled to interpret it in his/her own way.
that said, your reading does say a lot about your views. "infantilizing"? "religion"? your amazement is worth looking into as well. what assumptions are you holding?

be free,
guo gu

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boda
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by boda » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:31 pm

guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:04 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
children and the stopping of crying is a metaphor.
everyone is entitled to interpret it in his/her own way.
that said, your reading does say a lot about your views. "infantilizing"? "religion"? your amazement is worth looking into as well. what assumptions are you holding?

be free,
guo gu
Of course everyone is free to interpret metaphors as they wish but this says nothing about how you intend this metaphor to be interpreted or why it’s nessisary to use it in the first place.

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fuki
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:41 pm

bodhi wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:31 pm

Of course everyone is free to interpret metaphors as they wish but this says nothing about how you intend this metaphor to be interpreted or why it’s nessisary to use it in the first place.
When there's no suffering would buddhadharma ever came into being to match the needs of sentient beings?

It was just a reminder, children could have been sick ppl in a hospital too (the virus of self-identification) just words.

So buddhadharma is like a sky-flower, love to hear that from teachers instead of the holy moly archetypical stuff. :)
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guo gu
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by guo gu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:56 pm

bodhi wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:31 pm
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:04 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
children and the stopping of crying is a metaphor.
everyone is entitled to interpret it in his/her own way.
that said, your reading does say a lot about your views. "infantilizing"? "religion"? your amazement is worth looking into as well. what assumptions are you holding?

be free,
guo gu
Of course everyone is free to interpret metaphors as they wish but this says nothing about how you intend this metaphor to be interpreted or why it’s nessisary to use it in the first place.
bodhi,
pls re-read the post then. it's there.
it's simple, we're children. children needs something to stop from crying. hence the use of buddhadharma.
is that clear?
gg

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by lindama » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:27 am

guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:56 pm
it's simple, we're children. children needs something to stop from crying. hence the use of buddhadharma.
is that clear?
not clear Guo Go, it maybe the words and assumptions.

yes, we enter the dharma (kingdom of heaven) as children, meaning that we enter innocent, dropped mind, etc. This is also the biblical way of expressing it. So, it's a bit of a confusion, that a child crys and needs buddhadharma to stop. At the point of entering heaven, we are neither child nor not-child. are you saying that we remain children and need the mother of buddhadharma? This seems akin to demoting our humanity to the care of the priesthood in Christianity. seems to me that buddhadharma is for more than a child. At the point of suffering, we greet it with an open heart beside buddhadharma. no separation. subtle for sure.

that is one way of defining children, innocence. The other is the irrational terrible two's childish omnipotence that is prevalent in this society, and the world.
Last edited by lindama on Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:24 am

guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:04 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
children and the stopping of crying is a metaphor.
everyone is entitled to interpret it in his/her own way.
that said, your reading does say a lot about your views. "infantilizing"? "religion"? your amazement is worth looking into as well. what assumptions are you holding?

be free,
guo gu
Dude, don't try to drive-by teach me. You don't know anything about me and I didn't ask for it.
That said, hyperbole is difficult to recognize just reading the words.

If it's a metaphor, what did you mean it to stand for? Can you elaborate?

*edit: topposted by accident

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Fruitzilla
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:56 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:27 am
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:56 pm
it's simple, we're children. children needs something to stop from crying. hence the use of buddhadharma.
is that clear?
not clear Guo Go, it maybe the words and assumptions.

yes, we enter the dharma (kingdom of heaven) as children, meaning that we enter innocent, dropped mind, etc. This is also the biblical way of expressing it. So, it's a bit of a confusion, that a child crys and needs buddhadharma to stop. At the point of entering heaven, we are neither child nor not-child. are you saying that we remain children and need the mother of buddhadharma? This seems akin to demoting our humanity to the care of the priesthood in Christianity. seems to me that buddhadharma is for more than a child. At the point of suffering, we greet it with an open heart beside buddhadharma. no separation. subtle for sure.

that is one way of defining children, innocence. The other is the irrational terrible two's childish omnipotence that is prevalent in this society, and the world.
I always loved the biblical kingdom of heaven verse, or the lilies of the field for that matter. Isn't there a striking similarity to the story where Siddhartha remembered sitting under the tree as a child?

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:48 am

I interpreted Guo Gu’s allusion to ‘crying children’ as similar to the meaning in the Lotus Sutra - the toys used to lead the children from the house on fire. The real reward is of course not the toy, but not actually perishing in a burning house. And it seems a perfectly apt metaphor to me.

Fuki’s quotations remind me of the impersonal yet compassionate nature of the non-dual wisdom. Some of those passages really remind me, or cause me to remember again, how real philosophy - in the original sense of love~wisdom - is truly ‘awakening to reality’ - awakening simply in the sense of seeing through the mind’s machinations which are always grounded in the ‘I and mine’, and seeing the vastness beyond. Actually I was given Nisargardatta’s books by one of my original dharma teachers - he wasn’t formally a dharma teacher, but a tutor at my University, but one who was deeply involved in the estalblishment of Buddhism in Australia. I visited his private library a long while back, he had marvellous archival material on the early days of Krishnamurti.

Anyway, I digress. Of course we have to be mindful of self-attachment in posting or anything else. It doesn’t mean not expressing a perspective or a point-of-view, but trying to do so in the appropriate spirit.
The most important thing is not at all important.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:10 am

One thing I remember being struck by in my early days in the West and also on E-Sangha (before acculturation really took hold) is the background level of hubris.

I know it's not going to sit well with many of the folks here, but those of us who have some connection to an Eastern culture (and doing some growing up in the Ukraine, while not really "East" is certainly a bit more Eastern than the US, Australia or W. Europe) might know what I mean. The emphasis on the individual, one's own truth, uniqueness and importance have a shadowy side, and this is what I mean by 'hubris'. Even a mention of children, repentance practices, etc tend to get our backs up. I include myself in this too, because I am just as proud and arrogant as the next person, if not more. Underneath, in many cases, if not all, is a deep existential angst that we are in fact a nothing, so we cling to this misplaced pride 'for dear life' as it were. Not a good remedy and hopefully in the course of Dharma practice these layers are seen for what they are.

I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in. This is a good attitude to posting I try to live up to (and fail quite often at).

_/|\_

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:42 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:10 am
One thing I remember being struck by in my early days in the West and also on E-Sangha (before acculturation really took hold) is the background level of hubris.

I know it's not going to sit well with many of the folks here, but those of us who have some connection to an Eastern culture (and doing some growing up in the Ukraine, while not really "East" is certainly a bit more Eastern than the US, Australia or W. Europe) might know what I mean. The emphasis on the individual, one's own truth, uniqueness and importance have a shadowy side, and this is what I mean by 'hubris'. Even a mention of children, repentance practices, etc tend to get our backs up. I include myself in this too, because I am just as proud and arrogant as the next person, if not more. Underneath, in many cases, if not all, is a deep existential angst that we are in fact a nothing, so we cling to this misplaced pride 'for dear life' as it were. Not a good remedy and hopefully in the course of Dharma practice these layers are seen for what they are.

I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in. This is a good attitude to posting I try to live up to (and fail quite often at).

_/|\_
My girlfriend is Japanese, so I have a little insight in this part. IMHO any culture is in part a response to an existential fear. Whether this fear is that we are nothing at core, I don't know.
Cultures which put the group above the individual have just as much, if not more, of a dark side than the current western one. There's a good reason for the high rate of alcoholism in Japan for example.
As for me, of course my specific array of features are unique. None of them are original though. I got them all from somewhere. I like to think my opinions are usually reasonably well researched though.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by guo gu » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:08 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:24 am
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:04 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
children and the stopping of crying is a metaphor.
everyone is entitled to interpret it in his/her own way.
that said, your reading does say a lot about your views. "infantilizing"? "religion"? your amazement is worth looking into as well. what assumptions are you holding?

be free,
guo gu
Dude, don't try to drive-by teach me. You don't know anything about me and I didn't ask for it.
That said, hyperbole is difficult to recognize just reading the words.

If it's a metaphor, what did you mean it to stand for? Can you elaborate?

*edit: topposted by accident
my friend,
this metaphor comes from the love for children. no matter what the children do, no matter how stubborn and vexing, the love for them is the same. thus buddhadharma continues to invent teachings appropriate for sentient beings without giving up. it's from chp 3 of the lotus sutra (parables).
i typed out my comments out of humility and love. buddhadharma is meant to be used on ourselves. to rid of self-referentiality and to foster love. from humility and love, you received it as condescension and infantalization.
i ask you to look within, your reading of it, because you read it as religion's condescending of ppl, belittling ppl as infants. your entitled to, of course. but if you're not a child, why would you want to make yourself one? even if someone has a projection on you as a child, that's his imagination. why would you want to live in his dream, his imagination? it's like someone calls you "john smith." if you're not john smith, why would you respond? if you respond, you're personalizing it, that would be as if you're taking on the role of john smith (or a child, in this case).
you ask for elaboration. so here it is. love and humility.
while i wasn't teaching you, i thank you for teaching me. i'm learning of sentient beings' tendencies. this has been most revealing, indeed. so thank you.
be well,
guo gu

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bokki
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by bokki » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:24 pm

GG, thank u very very much.
its an honor 4 me.

but, say, gg, :
i'm learning of sentient beings' tendencies.
how interesting..
what are you, gg?
an alien?
or sumpin ud like to explain?
an insentient being?
lol, gg.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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fuki
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:52 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:24 pm
what are you, gg?
an alien?
or sumpin ud like to explain?
an insentient being?
lol, gg.
:lol:

Don't make prisoners, you'll only lock yourself up in the process. :D
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by bokki » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:13 pm

im chained and bound to my post,..ughmmnn,..posts, my parts , i mean..
lol collect me..please!
so , 2 b true, im an delirious, deluded, attached, ..fool
well, f u k i
i also dont exist
..
or maybe, just when i post
..tho, u must, truly and deeply understand..
that i do not seek.!!!!!!!!!!
oh lord, no, who is typing this?
some kind of an alien,
SEEKING
2 understand us
sentient beings.
no prisoners? no more,
im tiered of lies.
tho, enjoy them freely.

but hey!
i remember u coming up with a conspiratorial theory,
that u did not explain.
is that ur idea of no prisoners?
and y r u butting in into some1s talk,
when no1 has invited u to.
?

u so clever?
fuki..lets take a step back.


im accussing gg of calling us deluded, ateched, fools..
and saying he is just learning the way sentients behave.
great.
go and learn how goats behave, we will have some milk.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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