self-attachment in posts

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:33 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:13 pm
i also dont exist
So then only love remains...
thanks for the milk bokki on behalf of the cats.
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:33 am

Let's twist and turn a bit with help of Sheng Yen's book "song of mind"

"Distinguishing between profane and sacred,
Their vexations flourish.
Splitting hairs deviates from the eternal.
Seeking the real, you give up the true.

Discarding both is the cure,
Transparent, bright, pure.
No need for hard work or skill;
Keep to the actions of an infant"

Image

Image

So here's the twist I'd like to entertain;
Does is matter if we think what GG's words mean, we might think he calls us deluded or children, enlightened or adults? Aren't we all originally free from such divisive notions until our eyes hit some words and the mind starts to self-referentially create you and me, enlightened and deluded, attraction and aversion depending on conditions? So whatever GG means the lesson lies in our interpretation and self-referentiality, how did it arise? Afterall sentient beings are without mind, out of no-mind they manifest. It's obvious if we break the chain of habitual reactivity and remain free from the lure of interpretation. Let us be more like infants :)
:111:

https://www.shambhala.com/song-of-mind-1380.html
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Fruitzilla » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:30 pm

guo gu wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:08 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:24 am
guo gu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:04 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:23 pm
I can't help but be amazed every time I see religion used to infantalize it's adherents.
children and the stopping of crying is a metaphor.
everyone is entitled to interpret it in his/her own way.
that said, your reading does say a lot about your views. "infantilizing"? "religion"? your amazement is worth looking into as well. what assumptions are you holding?

be free,
guo gu
Dude, don't try to drive-by teach me. You don't know anything about me and I didn't ask for it.
That said, hyperbole is difficult to recognize just reading the words.

If it's a metaphor, what did you mean it to stand for? Can you elaborate?

*edit: topposted by accident
my friend,
this metaphor comes from the love for children. no matter what the children do, no matter how stubborn and vexing, the love for them is the same. thus buddhadharma continues to invent teachings appropriate for sentient beings without giving up. it's from chp 3 of the lotus sutra (parables).
i typed out my comments out of humility and love. buddhadharma is meant to be used on ourselves. to rid of self-referentiality and to foster love. from humility and love, you received it as condescension and infantalization.
i ask you to look within, your reading of it, because you read it as religion's condescending of ppl, belittling ppl as infants. your entitled to, of course. but if you're not a child, why would you want to make yourself one? even if someone has a projection on you as a child, that's his imagination. why would you want to live in his dream, his imagination? it's like someone calls you "john smith." if you're not john smith, why would you respond? if you respond, you're personalizing it, that would be as if you're taking on the role of john smith (or a child, in this case).
you ask for elaboration. so here it is. love and humility.
while i wasn't teaching you, i thank you for teaching me. i'm learning of sentient beings' tendencies. this has been most revealing, indeed. so thank you.
be well,
guo gu
Hey GG,

Sometimes I like to be a bit over the top in my reactions to see what answer comes. There's a lot less emotion behind the statements than could be interpreted. Though I do admit to getting annoyed when someone lectures me out of the blue. That's not likely to change too by the way. I've also been rightfully accused of being too terse, which helps develop misunderstandings.

The statement I made about infantalizing wasn't about me feeling treated like an infant ( and I'm not quite sure why you automatically assume it to be so), but a statement about a dynamic which is quite prevalent in religion and other situations where there is an inherent power imbalance.. It's not easy for both teachers and students not to fall into the daddy/infant trap and it's not uncommon for people who like playing daddy to end up in a teacher role, as you undoubtedly know.
Linda's post earlier in the thread makes some excellent points I think. It might be interesting to look at those more closely.

One thing I do keep noticing though, is that although you keep asking asking me to look inside, it seems to me you're doing little of that yourself. That's a reason why I'm not sure how to interpret your last point. Do you mean you've learnt from my tendencies, or from your own in responding in this thread?

Hope I've shed some light on what I know of my perceptions!

Cheers

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by boda » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:24 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:10 am
One thing I remember being struck by in my early days in the West and also on E-Sangha (before acculturation really took hold) is the background level of hubris.

I know it's not going to sit well with many of the folks here, but those of us who have some connection to an Eastern culture (and doing some growing up in the Ukraine, while not really "East" is certainly a bit more Eastern than the US, Australia or W. Europe) might know what I mean. The emphasis on the individual, one's own truth, uniqueness and importance have a shadowy side, and this is what I mean by 'hubris'. Even a mention of children, repentance practices, etc tend to get our backs up. I include myself in this too, because I am just as proud and arrogant as the next person, if not more. Underneath, in many cases, if not all, is a deep existential angst that we are in fact a nothing, so we cling to this misplaced pride 'for dear life' as it were. Not a good remedy and hopefully in the course of Dharma practice these layers are seen for what they are.

I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in. This is a good attitude to posting I try to live up to (and fail quite often at).

_/|\_
I've never bought the 'my ego is afraid of emptiness' thing, assuming this is the thrust of you point. Death is a concept that may inspire anxiety in any culture, and as Fruitzilla mentioned, cultures that don't value individuality as much as the West have their own dark side.

Personally, I find the concept of emptiness comforting and relieving of existential anxiety. I doubt Buddhism would have ever gained much traction if others didn't feel similarly. I think any angst associated with the mention of children in this topic surrounds the issue of social hierarchies in religion and the problems therein, for me anyway. Even the use of the word 'hubris' raises a red flag because, f**k, there are no Gods to defy.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:44 am

I wasn't really thinking of Sunyata. And my diagnosis of hubris masking an existential angst is probably a gross generalisation. But hubris there is. And it is palpable if one's had the cultural exposure that I mentioned. This is not to elevate the East as 'better' - it has plenty of its own shadow.

Hubris doesn't need a religious context. I've meet atheist scientists who were truly humble, faced as they were with an incredible mystery they had only began to comprehend.

Perhaps it is a spiritual equivalent of the Dunning-Kruger - the less sense we have of it All, the more importance we imbue our transitory ideas and existence with.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by boda » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:26 pm

Dan74 wrote:I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in.
I'm trying to be open and understand your claim although in all honestly it doesn't make much sense yet. I would like to understand.
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:44 am
I wasn't really thinking of Sunyata.
What were you thinking about? You mentioned "a deep existential angst that we are in fact a nothing." What else could this mean but fear of emptiness?
And my diagnosis of hubris masking an existential angst is probably a gross generalisation. But hubris there is. And it is palpable if one's had the cultural exposure that I mentioned.
If it is hubris then what is the [pride before the] fall or nemesis? If you can answer this I believe it would go a long way in helping us to understand your claim.
Perhaps it is a spiritual equivalent of the Dunning-Kruger - the less sense we have of it All, the more importance we imbue our transitory ideas and existence with.
If it's the Dunning-Kruger effect then what exactly is the 'spiritual competency' that's being overestimated? If you can answer this I believe it would go a long way in helping us to understand your claim, though I think it will be more difficult than the similar question regarding hubris.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by lindama » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:21 am

Dan, It's upside down.... when the emphasis is on the individual (western) or on communal non-egp (eastern), there is attachment. Non-attachment is not a mindset, it is an octave higher where east meats west, heaven meets earth. ofc, both have shadows tho I think it's not useful to reify the shadow, practice doesn't do that. Reifying hubris is just another attachment. Just to be clear, I am not suggesting a spiritual bypass. As far as I know, west and east complement each other until there is only one. Fuki, aka, Master Sheng Yen, had some wise words. Existential angst is nothing new, we see it in our western grasping and consumerism as well as in the ancient story about the monk who lived 500 lives as a fox after answering that an enlightened being did not fall under the laws of karma ....
Hyakujo’s Fox
Whenever Hyakujo delivered a Zen lecture, an old man was always there with the monks listening to it; and when they left the Hall, so did he. One day, however, he remained behind, and Hyakujo asked,”Who are you?”

The old man replied,”Yes, I am not a human being, but in the far distant past, when the Kashapa Buddha (the Sixth Buddha of the Seven Ancient Buddhas) preached in this world, I was the head monk in this mountain area. On one occasion a monk asked me whether an enlightened man could fall again under the law of karma (cause and effect), and I answered that he could not. Thus I became a fox for 500 rebirths and am still a fox. I beg you to release me from this condition through your Zen words.”

Then he asked Hyakujo,”Is an enlightened man subject to the law of karma?” Hyakujo answered, “No one is free from the law of Karma.”

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened, and said with a bow, “I am now released from rebirth as a fox and my body will be found on the other side of the mountain. May I request that you bury me as a dead monk?”

The next day Hyakujo had the Karmadana, or deacon, beat the clapper and he informed the monks that after the midday meal there would be a funeral service for a dead monk. “No one was sick or died,” wondered the monks. “What does our Roshi mean?” After they had eaten, Hyakujo led them to the foot of a rock on the furthest side of the mountain, and with his staff poked the dead body of a fox and had it ritually cremated.

In the evening Hyakujo gave a talk to the monks and told them this story of the law of Karma. Upon hearing the story, Obaku asked Hyakujo, “You said that because a long time ago an old Zen master gave a wrong answer he became a fox for 500 rebirths. But suppose every time he answered he had not made a mistake, what would have happened then?” Hyakujo replied, “Just come here to me, and I will tell you the answer!” Obaku then went up to Hyakujo–and slapped the teacher’s face. Hyakujo, clapping his hands and laughing, exclaimed, “I thought the Persian had a red beard, but here is another one with a red beard!”

Mumon’s Comment:

“The enlightened man is not subject to Karma.” How can this answer make the monk a fox? “The enlightened man is not free from the law of karma.” How can this answer release him from his fox’s life? If you have one eye in regard to this, then you understand Hyakujo’s (the old man’s) dramatic 500 rebirths.

Free from karma or subject to it,
They are two sides of the same die.
Subject to karma or free from it,
Both are irredeemable errors.
I would add that we don't need to come to terms with hubris. When we listen to each other, a change of heart is called for. The idea of being a so-called spiritual do-gooder, tho well intended, is just not real. The dharma accepts no substitutes. The dunning kruger thingy is a mental construct in psychology and is not relevant any more than hubris. We can't mix what is Cesaer's with what is Buddha's. We can't live life in abstractions.

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:10 am
One thing I remember being struck by in my early days in the West and also on E-Sangha (before acculturation really took hold) is the background level of hubris.

I know it's not going to sit well with many of the folks here, but those of us who have some connection to an Eastern culture (and doing some growing up in the Ukraine, while not really "East" is certainly a bit more Eastern than the US, Australia or W. Europe) might know what I mean. The emphasis on the individual, one's own truth, uniqueness and importance have a shadowy side, and this is what I mean by 'hubris'. Even a mention of children, repentance practices, etc tend to get our backs up. I include myself in this too, because I am just as proud and arrogant as the next person, if not more. Underneath, in many cases, if not all, is a deep existential angst that we are in fact a nothing, so we cling to this misplaced pride 'for dear life' as it were. Not a good remedy and hopefully in the course of Dharma practice these layers are seen for what they are.

I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in. This is a good attitude to posting I try to live up to (and fail quite often at).

_/|\_

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:36 am

That's all fine, Linda. But even upside down is a useful perspective sometimes.

I especially agree that when we listen to each other, a change of heart is called for. This "when" and especially "if" is the crux of the matter, for me. Digging deeper, there is a vast world of difference between listen and hear.

There are different paths and approaches. Notions, even abstractions can have their uses, when coupled with the manifestations here-and-now. They can act as another pointer. Even the distinction of mental constructs vs practice, is a mental construct, an abstraction that evidently holds some currency.

In my case, when feelings and thoughts flow into the words through the fingertips, they sometimes take on a somewhat general even abstract appearance. All are signifiers, pointing to something real. Or so it seems.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by michaeljc » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:49 am


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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:51 am

bodhi wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:26 pm
Dan74 wrote:I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in.
I'm trying to be open and understand your claim although in all honestly it doesn't make much sense yet. I would like to understand.
This openness to understanding is already at least 3/4 of the way there. So I think you mostly understand, though you may not see where I am coming from, given that we have very different backgrounds.
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:44 am
I wasn't really thinking of Sunyata.
What were you thinking about? You mentioned "a deep existential angst that we are in fact a nothing." What else could this mean but fear of emptiness?
Emptiness is an actual state of things. This existential angst is the core of all our inferiority complexes. I guess it comes out of our misperception of ourselves as a discrete temporary entity.
And my diagnosis of hubris masking an existential angst is probably a gross generalisation. But hubris there is. And it is palpable if one's had the cultural exposure that I mentioned.
If it is hubris then what is the [pride before the] fall or nemesis? If you can answer this I believe it would go a long way in helping us to understand your claim.
I don't see a distinction. Every time we puff ourselves with pride and close our hearts, there is a little fall. A bardo, a fork in the road that we take the wrong turn at. And of course it makes it more likely that the next time we will do the same..
Perhaps it is a spiritual equivalent of the Dunning-Kruger - the less sense we have of it All, the more importance we imbue our transitory ideas and existence with.
If it's the Dunning-Kruger effect then what exactly is the 'spiritual competency' that's being overestimated? If you can answer this I believe it would go a long way in helping us to understand your claim, though I think it will be more difficult than the similar question regarding hubris.
[/quote]

That we think we have this thing called life figured out, that we are in control.

Suzuki Roshi's Beginner's Mind, Seungs Sahn's Simply Don't Know, etc etc all point to the same thing but in a positive way. I just expressed it negatively.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:08 am

Thank you, Michael. We are seeing Bob only a week from now, so especially apposite.

Reminded me also of this little gem:

http://studylib.net/doc/7401480/jorge-l ... the-other-

Just saw this exchange from Krishnamurti which may be relevant.
[SPOILER]
Question: Will you please explain the process of your mind when you are actually speaking here. If you have not gathered knowledge, and if you have no store of experience and memory, from where do you get your wisdom? How do you manage to cultivate it? (Pause)

Krishnamurti: I am hesitating because I have not seen the questions before. I shall answer spontaneously, so you also will have to follow spontaneously and not think along traditional lines. The question, then, is how my mind works, and how I have gathered wisdom. "If you have no store of experience and memory, from where do you get your wisdom? How do you manage to cultivate it?" First of all, how do you know that what I am saying is wisdom? (Laughter) Sirs, do not laugh. It is easy to laugh and pass it by. How do you know that what I am saying is true? By what measurement, by what yardstick do you measure? Is there a measurement for wisdom? Can you say this is wisdom and that is not? Is sensation wisdom, or is the response to sensation wisdom? Sir, you do not know what wisdom is; therefore, you cannot say I am speaking wisdom. Wisdom is not that which you experience, nor is it to be found in a book. Wisdom is not something that you can experience at all, that you can gather, accumulate. On the contrary, wisdom is a state of being in which there is no accumulation of any kind; you cannot gather wisdom.
The questioner wants to know how my mind works. If I may go into it a little, I will show you. There is no center from which it is acting, there is no memory from which it is responding. There is memory of the road which I took just now, of the road where I live, there is the recognition of people, of incidents, but there is no accumulating process, no mechanical process of gradual gathering, from which comes response. If I did not know the usage of English or some other language, I would not be able to speak. Communication on the verbal level is necessary in order to understand each other, but it is what is said, how it is said, from where it is said, that is important. Now, when a question is put, if the answer is the response of a mind which has accumulated experiences and memories, then it is merely reaction, and therefore it is not reasoning; but when there is no accumulation, which means no response, then there is no frustration, no effort, no struggle. The accumulating process, the accumulating center, is like a deep-rooted tree in a stream which gathers debris around itself, and thought, sitting on the top of that tree, imagines it is thinking, living. Such a mind is only accumulating, and the mind which accumulates - whether knowledge, money, or experience - is obviously not living. It is only when the mind moves, flows, that there is living.
The questioner wants to know how wisdom is come by, and how to cultivate it. You cannot cultivate wisdom; you can cultivate knowledge, information, but you cannot cultivate wisdom because wisdom is not a thing that can be accumulated. The moment you begin to accumulate, it becomes mere information, knowledge, which is not wisdom. The entity that cultivates wisdom is still part of thought, and thought is merely a response, a reaction to challenge. Therefore, thought is merely the accumulation of memory, of experience, of knowledge, and so thought can never find wisdom. Only when there is a cessation of thinking is there wisdom, and there can be cessation of thinking only when there is an end to the process of accumulation - which is the recognition of the 'me' and the 'mine'. While the mind functions within the field of 'me' and the 'mine', which is merely reaction, there cannot be wisdom. Wisdom is a state of spontaneity which has no center, which has no accumulating entity. As I am talking, I am aware of the words I am using, but I am not reacting from a center to the question. To find out the truth of a question, of a problem, the process of thinking - which is mechanical and which we know - must come to an end. Therefore, it means there must be complete inward silence, and then only will you know that creativeness which is not mechanical, which is not merely reaction. So, silence is the beginning of wisdom. Look, sirs, it is fairly simple. When you have a problem, your first response is to think about it, to resist it, to deny it, to accept it, or to explain it away, is it not? Watch yourself and you will see. Take any problem that arises, and you will see that the immediate response is to resist or to accept it; or, if you do not do either of those things, you justify it, or you explain it away. So, when a question is asked, your mind is immediately set into motion; like a machine, it immediately responds. But if you will solve the problem, the immediate response is silence, not thinking. When this question was asked, my response was silence, complete silence, and being silent, I saw immediately that where there is accumulation, there cannot be wisdom. Wisdom is spontaneity, and there can be no spontaneity or freedom as long as there is accumulation as knowledge, memory. So, a man of experience can never be a wise man nor a simple man, but the man who is free from the process of accumulation is wise; he knows what silence is, and whatever comes from that silence is true. That silence is not a thing to be cultivated; it has no means, there is no path to it, there is no "how." To ask "how" means cultivating; it is merely a reaction, a response of the desire to accumulate silence. But when you understand the whole process of accumulating, which is the process of thinking, then you will know that silence from which springs action which is not reaction, and one can live in that silence all the time; it is not a gift, a capacity - it has nothing to do with capacity. It comes into being only when you closely observe every reaction, every thought, every feeling; when you are aware of the fact without explanation, without resistance, without acceptance or justification; and when you see the fact very clearly without intervening blocks and screens, then the very perception of the fact dissolves the fact, and the mind is quiet. It is only when the mind is very quiet, not making an effort to be quiet, that it is free. Sir, it is only the free mind that is wise, and to be free the mind must be silent.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 am

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:51 am
That we this think called life
Yep it seems we're living in a conceptual universe :lol:

You know what I'm not gonna finish this thought, that's how you leave a Larry :hatsoff: :lol:
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by fuki » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:21 am

Free from karma or subject to it,
They are two sides of the same die.
Subject to karma or free from it,
Both are irredeemable errors.
Screenshot_2018-04-04-14-13-56.png
Screenshot_2018-04-04-14-13-56.png (1017.13 KiB) Viewed 329 times
:lol:
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by boda » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:02 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:51 am
bodhi wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:26 pm
Dan74 wrote:I think when we come to terms with this hubris we can truly listen to one another and actually be open enough to let the words in.
I'm trying to be open and understand your claim although in all honestly it doesn't make much sense yet. I would like to understand.
This openness to understanding is already at least 3/4 of the way there. So I think you mostly understand, though you may not see where I am coming from, given that we have very different backgrounds.
I'm failing to understand because you're not explaining your claim well. It has little if anything to do with our backgrounds.
This existential angst is the core of all our inferiority complexes.
I'm no psychologist but I believe inferiority complexes are generally attributed to issues in early development, specifically in relationships with caregivers.
Every time we puff ourselves with pride and close our hearts, there is a little fall. A bardo, a fork in the road that we take the wrong turn at. And of course it makes it more likely that the next time we will do the same..
There's no reason to be evasive. If you believe there's a specific mistake being made by Westerners, within the general realm of Buddhism, just say what it is.

The saying goes, 'pride before that fall '. What exactly is the fall, wrong turn, or mistake? Pride itself is not a mistake.
What exactly is the 'spiritual competency' that's being overestimated?
That we think we have this thing called life figured out, that we are in control.
This is rather convoluted but you appear to be claiming that Westerners, due to their valuing individuality, are so bad at the practice of 'beginners mind' that they can't even realize how bad they are at it. That's an interesting claim but I don't know how you could go about substantiating it. Would it be opposed to the practice of beginners mind to try substantiating it? Would it demonstrate spiritual competency to simply drop it and move on?

I skimmed through Wild Wild Country last night, a documentary on Netflix about Osho and the antics at his Oregon Commune. An awful lot of Westerners who appear to have been highly competent at don't-know mind. They fell fast and hard, unfortunately.

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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Dan74 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:20 am

bodhi wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:02 pm
This existential angst is the core of all our inferiority complexes.
I'm no psychologist but I believe inferiority complexes are generally attributed to issues in early development, specifically in relationships with caregivers.
That depends on how deep one goes. If there were no core to build upon, these early developmental events would have no effect. Of course if we go deep enough, there are the primordial seeds of ignorance about our true nature, which are universal, East or West, but I don't mean that. With a weaker bond to community and more weight placed on individuality, the fissures due to this fundamental ignorance that open in our fundamental sense of being, grow. When ignorant of our true nature but supported by a strong sense of being embedded in a family, community, and culture, they may not feel so bad.
bodhi wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:02 pm
Every time we puff ourselves with pride and close our hearts, there is a little fall. A bardo, a fork in the road that we take the wrong turn at. And of course it makes it more likely that the next time we will do the same..
There's no reason to be evasive. If you believe there's a specific mistake being made by Westerners, within the general realm of Buddhism, just say what it is.

The saying goes, 'pride before that fall '. What exactly is the fall, wrong turn, or mistake? Pride itself is not a mistake.
I am not being evasive, not sure what gave that impression. Pride is of course the mistake, the hubris. Fall, is the consequence. "Pride before the fall." Not "that fall".
bodhi wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:02 pm
What exactly is the 'spiritual competency' that's being overestimated?
That we think we have this thing called life figured out, that we are in control.
This is rather convoluted but you appear to be claiming that Westerners, due to their valuing individuality, are so bad at the practice of 'beginners mind' that they can't even realize how bad they are at it. That's an interesting claim but I don't know how you could go about substantiating it. Would it be opposed to the practice of beginners mind to try substantiating it? Would it demonstrate spiritual competency to simply drop it and move on?

I skimmed through Wild Wild Country last night, a documentary on Netflix about Osho and the antics at his Oregon Commune. An awful lot of Westerners who appear to have been highly competent at don't-know mind. They fell fast and hard, unfortunately.
Well, here you appear to be venturing into the familiar territory of sarcasm and away from your stated objective of trying to understand. "Don't know mind" doesn't mean being wilfully gullible.

Yes, beginner's mind, cup-too-full story, hubris, etc are all pointing to the same thing. Of course it is much deeper than what I've said in these few posts and goes all the way to non-abiding. But on a cruder level, it is a willingness to listen, a true interest in understanding where the other is coming from and allowing the words in before responding - "deep hearing', rather than the habitual filtering of them through one's tightly-held prism, the paradigm, the views, the whole kit-and-caboodle of our narrrative of how things are, in order to confirm or reject, praise and blame, etc etc

Edit: I am sorry if the tone is "talking down" or lecturing. Truth is, of course, I am largely talking out of an intellectual understanding and basically sharing my perspective, which it only one way of looking at things, among many. Thanks, Crystal, for a reminder.

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Crystal
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by Crystal » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:46 am


Of course it is much deeper than what I've said in these few posts and goes all the way to non-abiding
But on a cruder level, it is a willingness to listen, a true interest in understanding where the other is coming from and allowing the words in before responding - "deep hearing', rather than the habitual filtering of them through one's tightly-held prism, the paradigm, the views, the whole kit-and-caboodle of our narrrative of how things are, in order to confirm or reject, praise and blame, etc etc
Probably also about just relaaaaxing in the here and now and letting go of the notion that one should always be lecturing about one's own ideals regarding how others should think and behave.


.

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boda
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by boda » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:20 am
Well, here you appear to be venturing into the familiar territory of sarcasm and away from your stated objective of trying to understand. "Don't know mind" doesn't mean being wilfully gullible.

Yes, beginner's mind, cup-too-full story, hubris, etc are all pointing to the same thing. Of course it is much deeper than what I've said in these few posts and goes all the way to non-abiding. But on a cruder level, it is a willingness to listen, a true interest in understanding where the other is coming from and allowing the words in before responding - "deep hearing', rather than the habitual filtering of them through one's tightly-held prism, the paradigm, the views, the whole kit-and-caboodle of our narrrative of how things are, in order to confirm or reject, praise and blame, etc etc
I’ve been trying to understand your claim of Western hubris and all I can glean so far is a kind of stereotype that nonconformists, or those with Werstern enlightenment values, are like rebellious adolescents. If this is the prism with which you view East/West that’s your choice.

And I wasn’t being sarcastic. Rajneeshpuram is an example of Westerners conforming to the ideals you mention above. Indeed they spoke of the resistance to Rajneeshpuram in the same language you use.
Pride is of course the mistake, the hubris. Fall, is the consequence.
Obviously the fall is the consequence. What’s not obvious is what you’re claiming the consequence is. For an example of a consequence: the humble devotion to Osho by some of his followers led some otherwise good people to plot the assasination of the attorney general and poison 700 voters with salmonella.

I think you’ve vaugly touched on feelings of isolation and meaninglessness as a consequence of adopting Western enlightenment values. I wouldn’t argue against this but would add that growth isn’t always painless.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:16 am

If it's not baloney, then it's garbage. If it's not nonsense, then it's trash. If it's not me, then it's you.

Beneath all this, there is a fundament, a basement level, a substratum.

Don't look there. Just sink into it by letting go of...
  • baloney
    garbage
    nonsense
    trash
    me
    you
eh?

Do.

My advice, free. Worth every penny. :waving:

--Joe
"There is no beautifier of complexion, or form, or behavior, like the wish to scatter joy and not pain around us". – Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

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lindama
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Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by lindama » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:47 am

Joe, so happy to see you!! :110:

Have you noticed that some folks are tuned into this conversation.... you can do better! more than a list is called for.... talk to us

linda
desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:16 am
If it's not baloney, then it's garbage. If it's not nonsense, then it's trash. If it's not me, then it's you.

Beneath all this, there is a fundament, a basement level, a substratum.

Don't look there. Just sink into it by letting go of...
  • baloney
    garbage
    nonsense
    trash
    me
    you
eh?

Do.

My advice, free. Worth every penny. :waving:

--Joe

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desert_woodworker
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Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: self-attachment in posts

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Hi,
lindama wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:47 am
Joe, so happy to see you!!
Thank you, Linda. Good to drop-around.
lindama wrote:Have you noticed that some folks are tuned into this conversation.... you can do better! more than a list is called for.... talk to us
OK, thank you. If folks are tuned-in as you say, I'll say then what I said, and leave the list aside:

"Beneath all this, there is a fundament, a basement level, a substratum.

Don't look there. Just sink into it by letting go... ".

--Joe

ps rinse; repeat. Every day. What more is helpful to say? :namaste: :hatsoff: Good to see you Linda! Hat's off.
"There is no beautifier of complexion, or form, or behavior, like the wish to scatter joy and not pain around us". – Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

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