Chasing Enlightenment

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

Moderator: Spiritual Do-gooder

User avatar
clyde
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Chasing Enlightenment

Post by clyde » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:56 pm

Elsewhere, Jundo asked,
If Buddha is everywhere and always, then does one get closer to Buddha by digging deep or by radically stopping and letting be?
The question brought to mind this video of Adyashanti on “Chasing Enlightenment”:

“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1646
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:43 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:56 pm
Elsewhere, Jundo asked,
If Buddha is everywhere and always, then does one get closer to Buddha by digging deep or by radically stopping and letting be?
The question brought to mind this video of Adyashanti on “Chasing Enlightenment"
The merit of expedient talks or methods/no-methods depend on the practisioner. An "experienced" practisioner is aware that the "mind" is illusory, and hence seeking enlightenment/buddhahood etc is samsara, a product of the "ego" so we get a "spiritual ego". But for a more scattered practisioner there is seeking/digging, even stopping isn't truly stopping, since "stopping" is not an activity of mind, such stopping is self-deception, as much as expecting to become enlightened is. So there's merit in Adyashanti's words if conditions are ripe, but on forums often you'll see a variety of dualistic ideas and self-reference which expose and represent fixated patterns of consciousness, any discussion of this or that, this vs that (methods/non-methods) are pretty fruitless. Just "pick" a practise and stick with it. All sharing can motivate and be helpful.

Thanks for sharing Clyde, I enjoyed the talk.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Dan74 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:40 pm

This topic comes up quite often. Chasing enlightenment is a pretty loaded way of putting it, but all kinds of striving on the path..

In case folks are interested, this is from the Pali Suttas (thank you, starter, from DW):
[SPOILER]
1. How important are Four Bases for Spiritual Power?

Viraddha Sutta, SN 51.2:
"Bhikkhus, those who have neglected the four bases for spiritual power have neglected the noble path leading to the complete ending of suffering. Those who have undertaken the four bases for spiritual power have undertaken the noble path leading to the ending of suffering."

2. How to practice Four Bases for Spiritual Power

1) Chandasamādhi Sutta, SN 51.13:
"A bhikkhu obtains concentration, bhikkhus, by means of will (desire), he obtains unification [one-pointedness] of the mind: this is called concentration due to will. He generates his will (chanda - the 1st basis for spiritual power) for the non-arising of unarisen evil and unwholesome states, he makes an effort and arouses energy (viriya - the 2nd basis for spiritual power), applies his mind (citta - the 3rd basis for spiritual power), and strives (Vimaṃsā - the 4th basis for spiritual power). He generates his will for the abandoning of arisen evil and unwholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the arising of unarisen wholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the steadiness of arisen wholesome states, for their non-confusion, for their increase, their abundance, their cultivation and their completion, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are called volitions of striving. Thus, this will, this concentration due to will, and these volitions of striving: this is called, bhikkhus, the basis for (spiritual) Power that is endowed with concentration due to will and volitions of striving.

A bhikkhu obtains concentration, bhikkhus, by means of energetic effort, he obtains unification of the mind: this is called concentration due to energy. He generates his will for the non-arising of unarisen evil and unwholesome states, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the abandoning of arisen evil and unwholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the arising of unarisen wholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the steadiness of arisen wholesome states, for their non-confusion, for their increase, their abundance, their cultivation and their completion, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are called volitions of striving. Thus, this energy, this concentration due to energy, and these volitions of striving: this is called, bhikkhus, the basis for (spiritual) Power that is endowed with concentration due to energy and volitions of striving.

A bhikkhu obtains concentration, bhikkhus, by means of [applying] the mind [to avoid and abandon the evil/unwholesome states, and to arouse and develop the wholesome states], he obtains unification of the mind: this is called concentration due to (applying) the mind. He generates his will for the non-arising of unarisen evil and unwholesome states, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the abandoning of arisen evil and unwholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the arising of unarisen wholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the steadiness of arisen wholesome states, for their non-confusion, for their increase, their abundance, their cultivation and their completion, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are called volitions of striving. Thus, this (application of) mind, this concentration due to the (application of) mind, and these volitions of striving: this is called, bhikkhus, the basis for (spiritual) Power that is endowed with concentration due to the (application of) mind and volitions of striving.

A bhikkhu obtains concentration, bhikkhus, by means of discrimination and investigation (Vimaṃsā) [keep dividing the thinking into two sorts: evil/unwholesome states and wholesome states and “discerning that thinking imbued with ill will (and other unwholesome states) has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs wisdom, promotes vexation, & does not lead to nibbana” (MN 19)], he obtains unification of the mind: this is called concentration due to discrimination and investigation. He generates his will for the non-arising of unarisen evil and unwholesome states, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the abandoning of arisen evil and unwholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the arising of unarisen wholesome states, makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates his will for the steadiness of arisen wholesome states, for their non-confusion, for their increase, their abundance, their cultivation and their completion, he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are called volitions of striving. Thus, this discrimination and investigation, this concentration due to discrimination and investigation, and these volitions of striving: this is called, bhikkhus, the basis for (spiritual) Power that is endowed with concentration due to discrimination/investigation and volitions of striving."

[The above translation is based upon my personal understanding of the sutta.]

2) Pubba Sutta, SN 51.11:

"There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

"He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence...

"He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on intent...

"He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This discrimination of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

"And how is desire overly sluggish? Whatever desire is accompanied by laziness, conjoined with laziness, that is called overly sluggish desire.

"And how is desire overly active? Whatever desire is accompanied by restlessness, conjoined with restlessness, that is called overly active desire.

"And how is desire inwardly restricted? Whatever desire is accompanied by sloth & drowsiness, conjoined with sloth & drowsiness, that is called inwardly restricted desire.

"And how is desire outwardly scattered? Whatever desire is stirred up by the five strings of sensuality, outwardly dispersed & dissipated, that is called outwardly scattered desire.

"And how does a monk dwell perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, and what is behind is the same as what is in front? There is the case where a monk's perception of what is in front & behind is well in hand, well-attended to, well-considered, well-tuned by means of discernment. This is how a monk keeps perceiving what is in front and behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, and what is behind is the same as what is in front.

"And how does a monk dwell so that what is below is the same as what is above, and what is above is the same as what is below? There is the case where a monk reflects on this very body, from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin, & full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' This is how a monk dwells so that what is below is the same as what is above, and what is above is the same as what is below.

"And how does a monk dwell by night as by day, and by day as by night? There is the case where a monk at night develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion by means of the same modes & signs & themes that he uses by day, and by day he develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion by means of the same modes & signs & themes that he uses by night. This is how a monk dwells by night as by day, and by day as by night.

"And how does a monk — by means of an awareness open & unhampered — develop a brightened mind? There is the case where a monk has the perception of light, the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day] well in hand & well-established. This is how a monk — by means of an awareness open & unhampered — develops a brightened mind."

(The above discussion is then repeated for persistence, intent, & discrimination.)

[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html]

3. What are the fruits & benefits of developing Four Bases for Spiritual Power?

1) Pubba Sutta, SN 51.11:

"When a monk has thus developed & pursued the four bases of power, he experiences manifold supranormal powers ..." [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html]

2) DN 16

“Whoever has developed, Ānanda, made much of, carried on, established, maintained, augmented, and properly instigated the Four Bases for (Spiritual) Power, could, if he wanted, Ānanda, remain for the lifespan or for what is left of the lifespan. The Realised One has developed, Ānanda, made much of, carried on, established, maintained, augmented, and properly instigated the Four Bases for (Spiritual) Power. If he wanted, Ānanda, the Realised One could remain for the lifespan or for what is left of the lifespan.”
I will try to add Mahayana and Zen sources later.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1646
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:40 pm
But all kinds of striving on the path..
There is a difference between work and mere activity. All nature works. Work is nature, nature is work. On the other hand, activity is based on desire and fear, on longing to possess and enjoy, on fear of pain and annihilation. Work is by the whole for the whole, activity is by oneself for oneself.
~Sri niz.

Not "zen" but maybe helpful, if only to stay clear from dualistic notions of seeking/non-seeking via the ego-concept.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Crystal
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Crystal » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:48 pm

Some quotes from the late Ajahn Chah of the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition:
Do not be a bodhisatta; do not be an arahant; do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisatta, you will suffer; if you are an arahant, you will suffer; if you are anything at all, you will suffer.
and:
. A visiting Zen student asked Ajahn Chah, "How old are you? Do you live here all year round?" "I live nowhere," he replied. "There is no place you can find me. I have no age. To have age, you must exist, and to think you exist is already a problem. Don't make problems; then the world has none either. Don't make a self. There's nothing more to say."
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha011.htm


and finally, a Zen quote from Bankei:

"Don't hate the arising of thoughts or stop the thoughts that do arise; simply realise that our original mind, right from the start, is beyond thought, so that, no matter what, you never get involved with thoughts".
_/|\_

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by bokki » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:50 pm

If Buddha is everywhere and always, then does one get closer to Buddha by digging deep or by radically stopping and letting be?
oh, sir. oh.
who is the one digging the well?
shakya?
from where would the water come from if there was not 1 well digger,,,,
digging deep.
really
what r u seeking to radicaly stop?
or r u
seeking
not
2 radicaly
stop?

say,
how did the goose get out?

bokki
:namaste:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by [james] » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:08 pm

Crystal wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:48 pm
and finally, a Zen quote from Bankei:
"Don't hate the arising of thoughts or stop the thoughts that do arise; simply realise that our original mind, right from the start, is beyond thought, so that, no matter what, you never get involved with thoughts".
What is the problem in getting involved with thought? I can see the benefit of not getting ensnared, entangled but thought and thinking carries all sorts of enriching quality if the involvement is equanimous. Thought is a window to original mind, is it not?

User avatar
lindama
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by lindama » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:15 pm

I had an interview with Adya in 2002 while on retreat before he got big ... he said "stop"

User avatar
Crystal
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Crystal » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:30 am

[james] wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:08 pm
Crystal wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:48 pm
and finally, a Zen quote from Bankei:
"Don't hate the arising of thoughts or stop the thoughts that do arise; simply realise that our original mind, right from the start, is beyond thought, so that, no matter what, you never get involved with thoughts".
What is the problem in getting involved with thought? I can see the benefit of not getting ensnared, entangled but thought and thinking carries all sorts of enriching quality if the involvement is equanimous. Thought is a window to original mind, is it not?
Sure, but if the mind is continually rattling around with our views and opinions and discursive thoughts all the time, there's no room for any peaceful awareness, clarity and spaciousness, in order to see our personal "worlds" as they really are.

To quote Bankei again:

The original mind is unborn and imperishable
Earth, water, fire and wind
Are temporary lodgings for the night
Don’t attach to this
Ephemeral burning house

You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames
In which you’re consumed

http://www.thewayofmeditation.com.au/bl ... er-bankei/

_/|\_

Caodemarte
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:12 am

[james] wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:08 pm
Crystal wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:48 pm
and finally, a Zen quote from Bankei:
"Don't hate the arising of thoughts or stop the thoughts that do arise; simply realise that our original mind, right from the start, is beyond thought, so that, no matter what, you never get involved with thoughts".
What is the problem in getting involved with thought? I can see the benefit of not getting ensnared, entangled...
I think Bankei is using “getting involved with thought“ to mean “getting ensnared, entangled” in thought.

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:39 am

Exhausting oneself, and all avenues, one collapses into the Buddha.

Whatever method(s) -- and life situations -- one milks to do this, preferably supported by teacher and sangha, then, "that's what it takes", in your case.

Teachers have seen a lot (IF they have...), and their vision is open, in multi-dimensions, to subtlety and grossness. Their help is indispensable.

"There is no fixed Dharma".

Strong practice,

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:07 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:39 am
Exhausting oneself, and all avenues, one collapses into the Buddha.

Whatever method(s) -- and life situations -- one milks to do this, preferably supported by teacher and sangha, then, "that's what it takes", in your case.

Teachers have seen a lot (IF they have...), and their vision is open, in multi-dimensions, to subtlety and grossness. Their help is indispensable.

"There is no fixed Dharma".

Strong practice,

--Joe
One can get to Buddha in two ways:

Running, running, running until one is thoroughly exhausted, then thus allowing, one puts down all resistance and calls a truce on the fight.

Or, just being very still and present, allowing, one puts down all resistance and calls a truce on the fight.

(I am sure that there are other good ways too, and I am just painting in broad strokes)

But the point is that, no matter how far one runs, or where one sits, or whatever else one does, one cannot be any closer to Buddha. It is simply the refusal to allow, the resistance and fighting which keeps one from experiencing so. In a sense, if we are searching apart so we are creating apartness, and running from ourself that is running from Buddha when we run.

Shikantaza is one way, in which sitting itself is all allowing, in peace without resistance, the destination found here there and all around.

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundocohen on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:17 am

No fixed Dharma.

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
Crystal
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Crystal » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:03 am

No fixed Dharma.


Well...life goes on and there's also no fixed time for breakfast on a Sunday morning, yummy!

Image Image


.


.
Last edited by Crystal on Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1646
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:16 am

Crystal wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:03 am
No fixed Dharma.
No fixed time for breakfast on a Sunday morning, yummy!
.
Without the moon an Earth day would be around 5-10 hours instead of 24. Think we'd only have 1 meal per day I guess, called "eat" :cat:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1646
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:47 am

[james] wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:08 pm

What is the problem in getting involved with thought? I can see the benefit of not getting ensnared, entangled but thought and thinking carries all sorts of enriching quality if the involvement is equanimous. Thought is a window to original mind, is it not?
No problem since thoughts are momentary and arise due to conditions, unless there's the delusion that there's a thinker who thinks thoughts. Therefore Bankei is saying that all thoughts are illusory, the concept of original mind or Buddha-mind included ofcourse.
106983954.XyVVXOFO.NoThought.jpg
106983954.XyVVXOFO.NoThought.jpg (49.8 KiB) Viewed 222 times
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:57 am

There is running or walking in which one strives to get some place, some goal away from here. This is the movement of ordinary people.

There is sitting or standing still in which one is complacent, passive, resigned, wallowing in one's excess desires, anger, divided thinking. This is the stillness of ordinary people.

There is running or walking in which each step is total arrival, with all movement as stillness, free of goals and divided thinking even while alive in a world with needed goals and divided thinking. This is the movement-stillness of enlightened beings.

There is sitting or standing still which embodies all motion, being right here as total arrival of that never departed or which can be departed, with stillness as all movement, free of goals and divided thinking even while alive in a world with needed goals and divided thinking. This is the stillness-movement of enlightened beings.

Very simple really.

None of these folks ever leave Buddha nor get an inch closer to Buddha. However, only those for whom movement is stillness and stillness is all movement truly realize so.

As well, although one realizes that Buddha is not a matter of realization or need to realize in any way, still ... one should practice diligently, live gently, as free of excess desires, frictions and anger as possible (the sage's stillness in motion and motion in stillness help that along and make life smoother even with all the bumps and difficulties it will throw our way). That is how one realizes buddha in a world where buddha need not be realized.

Very simple really.

Gassho, J

PS - Personally, I do not feel that the above truths are a matter of whether one practices Koan Introspection or Shikantaza (or many other Practices such as chanting to Amida), all the same.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:11 pm

Yes, no fixed dharma.

And, right, there are practices, though, which are traditional, and they are traditional not for no reason, but for good reason(s).

(great Wisdom; great Compassion... ; great Get-Up and Go).

:namaste:

--Joe


raleigh_chivalry.jpg
raleigh_chivalry.jpg (123.21 KiB) Viewed 183 times
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:28 pm

"Chasing" is a nice word.

As a machinist, metal-worker, and woodworker/woodturner, it's got a meaning for me and other artisans that can also apply in our practice, but not in the frantic or blind way that some here have been supposing:
  • "Chasing, metalwork technique used to define or refine the forms of a surface design and to bring them to the height of relief required. The metal is worked from the front by hammering with various tools that raise, depress, or push aside the metal without removing any from the surface (except when the term chasing, instead of the more appropriate term chiselling, is used to describe the removal of surplus metal from objects after casting)."
Graphical example of a finished, chased piece below:

chased_case.jpg
chased_case.jpg (14.83 KiB) Viewed 179 times
Caption: Chased silver Torah case, 1764; in the Jewish Museum, New York City

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by [james] » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:31 pm

Crystal wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:30 am
Sure, but if the mind is continually rattling around with our views and opinions and discursive thoughts all the time, there's no room for any peaceful awareness, clarity and spaciousness, in order to see our personal "worlds" as they really are.
This is entanglement, I would say, and putting oneself in opposition. How much space does a thought occupy? Whatever we allow. Mind, the mind, this mind, our mind is already spacious and aware with plenty of room for patient, attentive involvement with rattling views and opinions. Aversion to a careful consideration of the real/delusional nature of our own thought streams, attachment to the possibility escape from this thinking mind is, in my view, a big part of chasing enlightenment.
To quote Bankei again:

The original mind is unborn and imperishable
Earth, water, fire and wind
Are temporary lodgings for the night
Don’t attach to this
Ephemeral burning house

You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames
In which you’re consumed

http://www.thewayofmeditation.com.au/bl ... er-bankei/
_/|\_
Yes temporary, yet ever renewing. Being involved is the fire of combustion.
Last edited by [james] on Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply