Chasing Enlightenment

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

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bokki
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by bokki » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:19 pm

:namaste:
Roshi.
Dogen said:
Nangaku then says, “"I'm polishing this to make a mirror." We should be clear about the meaning of these words. There is definitely a reason to “polish to make a mirror,” in which the Buddhist truths are always present and the realized universe is present, and it is not some empty endeavor. Although tiles are tiles and mirrors are mirrors, we should know that when we are striving to master the principle of “polishing,” we shall find that this polishing possesses a limitless abundance of distinguishing features. It may be that even the “eternal mirror” and the “clear mirror” are made mirrors by polishing a tile. If we do not realize that mirrors come from “polishing a tile,” then the buddhas and ancestors have nothing to say, do not open their mouths, and we do not perceive the exhaling of the buddhas and ancestors.
sir, again, how does that equate with this:
Jundo:
It is basic Mahayana Wisdom that the “eternal mirror” and the “clear mirror” cannot be made or polished (and are truly thus "non mirrors"), so we sit diligently polishing and making what cannot be polished or made. Very simple.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:42 pm

Anyway, it's "Un-darkening", not "Enlightenment". ;-)

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

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fuki
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:52 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:42 pm
Anyway, it's "Un-darkening", not "Enlightenment". ;-)

--Joe
Forgot that ever since zfi is dead, add it to zen space dictionary, please. Eventhough the traceless root of Light, is neither dark or light.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:57 pm

In optical mirror-making, we start with rough-grinding, proceed to fine-grinding, and progress to optical-lapping with a polishing compound like rouge, cerium oxide, or Barnesite.

Rough-grinding is done starting with a coarse abrasive, say 60 grit or 80 grit Carborundum, or Aluminum Oxide (Sapphire... ). This is to hog-out the mirror blank to the desired depth of curve

Metaphors from the old stories exist, about polishing a brick to make a mirror. It's good, but silly, Readers. Some lazy, dull, people don't take things far enough, see, or have no manual dexterity or somatic sense:

In our sitting practice, in working on the brick, a sensible worker could well use coarse abrasive "all the way down". When the brick is then completely ground away, leaving nothing, well, Voila! What a surprise, then. "You" have "your" mirror! It reflects everything, leaves no stains. Wonderful. Truly marvelous. Nothing there... .

It's a good system... . Blessings,

:namaste: :hatsoff:

--Joe

p.s. see Texereau: truly one of the Patriarchs of Amateur Telescope-Making. May he rest in deepest samadhi. :bow2:

texereau_.jpg
texereau_.jpg (39.01 KiB) Viewed 486 times
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

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jundocohen
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by jundocohen » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:02 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:12 pm
Oh, good.

They say that the only thing new under the sun is the History that you don't know... .

Some readers here may not yet have known that history ...and how Dogen actually came to realization.

Thanks for the opportunity to let this light in.

--Joe
Well, accounts vary ... most of the more detailed accounts are from the Kenzeiki, a bit of hagiography compiled about 2 centuries after Dogen's death.

The most reliable version is from Dogen's diary of his time in China, although possibly also recounted by Dogen years after the fact.
The traditional story behind this phrase goes that when he was training with his teacher in a monastery in China in 1227, some twenty-five years before this talk, Dogen was sitting in the monks' hall late one night and his teacher, Tiantong Rujing, was walking behind the meditating monks, and the person sitting next to Dogen was sleeping. Rujing took off his slipper and hit the sleeping monk, saying, "You are supposed to be dropping off body and mind, why are you engaged in just sleeping, instead of just sitting?" Supposedly Dogen was greatly awakened upon hearing this. He thereupon went to Rujing's room and offered incense, saying that he had dropped body and mind. When Rujing immediately approved him, Dogen is said to have asked that he not be confirmed so quickly. Rujing said that this was dropping off dropped off. So if you drop off body and mind, please let go of that too.

Modern scholars question whether this incident really happened, because they cannot find any record of Dogen's teacher talking about "Body and mind dropped off." But an earlier teacher in this lineage, Hongzhi Zhengjue (some of whose writings I translated in Cultivating the Empty Field), does talk about it. At any rate, this phrase, "Dropping away body and mind," is very important for Dogen as the ultimate goal, and the true essence of our zazen practice.
http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/dha ... y_and_mind


However, you were obviously there, Joe, so you must have the inside scoop.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:11 pm

J.-Roshi,
jundocohen wrote: The most reliable version is from Dogen's diary of his time in China, although possibly also recounted by Dogen years after the fact.
Yes; I enjoy Takashi Kodera's translation of the Hokyo-ki (bound as one with Kodera's edited dissertation, in his Dogen's Formative Years In China).
jundocohen wrote: However, you were obviously there, Joe, so you must have the inside scoop.
Yes, we were there in the wings. Uncanny to see you again. What goes around comes around.

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:18 pm

Fuki-ster,
fuki wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:52 pm
Forgot that ever since zfi is dead, add it to zen space dictionary, please.
Go ahead, please. Not me. My Lexicographer hat is one big hole. ;-)

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

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clyde
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by clyde » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:26 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:47 am
Clyde said:
My understanding is ‘just sitting’ isn’t about the position or the breath; those are tools. My understanding is ‘just sitting’ is about being attentive and seeing clearly - and when one notices that one has been “lost”, one returns to attentiveness.
If that were all it was, I would go take a "Mindfulness" course.
Jundo; I was sharing my understanding of ‘just sitting’, not teaching shikantaza.

I don’t know if “being attentive and seeing clearly” is or is not the same as “Mindfulness” practice; doesn’t matter to me either way.

Take care,
clyde
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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clyde
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by clyde » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:42 pm
Anyway, it's "Un-darkening", not "Enlightenment". ;-)

--Joe
:bow2:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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lindama
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by lindama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 am

Enlightenment leaves no trace

tho, I would add.... the deed will not be done until we kiss the demon on the lips.

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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:50 am

lindama wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 am
Enlightenment leaves no trace

tho, I would add.... the deed will not be done until we kiss the demon on the lips.
Sounds like the mythical bargain with the Devil. Is that how you mean this, for some reason? Or, are you speculating? Trying to scare people off? :?

--Joe

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lindama
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by lindama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:56 am

oh gee, no, not at all.... I'm pointing to the Taoist, yin and yang.

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:50 am
lindama wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 am
Enlightenment leaves no trace

tho, I would add.... the deed will not be done until we kiss the demon on the lips.
Sounds like the mythical bargain with the Devil. Is that how you mean this, for some reason? Or, are you speculating? Trying to scare people off? :?

--Joe

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Linda, I see.

Now, what demon is involved there? --Joe

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lindama
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by lindama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:00 pm

I was referencing Clyde's quote:

"“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism
Top"

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:35 am

Hi, Clyde,
clyde wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:42 pm
Anyway, it's "Un-darkening", not "Enlightenment". ;-)
:bow2:
I'd opine too that it's "Enlivenment"! (not Enlightenment).

:namaste:

--Joe

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clyde
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by clyde » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:07 pm

Joe; “Enlivenment” also works.

I have a preference for “un-darkening” and the ‘via negativa’ approach. For example, I found I had difficulty practicing patience, but was better at practicing ‘non-hurrying’.

:namaste:

clyde
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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fuki
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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:26 pm

clyde wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:07 pm
For example, I found I had difficulty practicing patience, but was better at practicing ‘non-hurrying’.
As in "letting go" - not possible
"not holding on" or "non-grasping" - no problem :D
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:55 pm

clyde wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Joe; “Enlivenment” also works.

I have a preference for “un-darkening” and the ‘via negativa’ approach. For example, I found I had difficulty practicing patience, but was better at practicing ‘non-hurrying’.
A jewel of a shared point. Thank you, Clyde!

--Joe

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