Chasing Enlightenment

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

Moderator: Spiritual Do-gooder

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:34 pm

Hi!, James. Warm Springtime wishes... .
[james] wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:31 pm
Being involved is the fire of combustion.
See what Viktor Frankl said:

"What is to give light must endure burning."

- Viktor Frankl, author, neurologist and psychiatrist,
Holocaust survivor (1905-1997)

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Dan74 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm

On the one hand we are taught Great Faith - that the coveted prize, the Buddha-nature, has never left our possession. On the other hand, every moment of our busy lives, we strive, fret about the outcomes of our striving, plan and worry about the future. Our practice, is full of effort though it may subside at times, leaving just the action, such moments are more of the exception than the rule.

On the one hand the Perfect Enlightenment Sutra teaches that the defilements and obscurations are like flowers in the sky - illusory, empty, not real. On the other, we are ensconced in our neuroses, fears, habits - rutted in more ways that we can count.

On the one hand, the Six Thieves besieging the house - the senses and the disturbances that enter through them are taught to be members of our own family. On the other, peace of mind is elusive and the worldly winds blow through the sense doors and we often feel like nothing but a leaf, blown about by them, especially when the taken-for-granted props are gone.

So what is the way out? One could embrace the reality of our striving, delusion, the worldly winds as they are, the relative truth of our existence that we are faced with and deal with them, the best that we can. One could pretend that one is liberated - beyond effort, free of defilements and neuroses, untouched by the worldy winds. Or one could reject the duality altogether and just say that it's all OK, absolute in relative, relative in the absolute, neuroses in nirvana and worldly winds in absolute peace.

This latter is what Rev Jundo seems to be advocating, as far as I can make out. The trouble I have with it is not the teaching that there is no place to go and nothing 'beyond' to attain (from Huang-Po, Huineng, etc etc) it's been the standard teaching in Zen since time immemorial. The trouble is not even that one could make this the sole practice, this complete letting go of all striving (one Soto teacher I sat with taught pretty much the same too) and it is completely fine. It is perhaps the rejection of complete liberation as even a possibility.

But even more so, the trouble for me is that it generally doesn't work. It can work, but it generally doesn't. And after investing years into it, people either honestly throw in the towel and say 'well, this was a waste of time" or they create a complex narrative to salvage their egos and pretend to themselves, that it has, whereas they may be zonking out, whispering sweet-nothings to themselves, shouting from a pulpit how this is the most radical of all practices, etc etc. I've seen it, believe me. Master Sheng-Yen, I recall, said similar things in one of his books, where, if I recall correctly, he wrote that he doesn't generally teach shikantaza, because it doesn't work with modern people.

Like with all proselytisers, one does get the feeling that 'the lady doth protest too much' but then again, don't we all..

_/|\_

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:22 pm

Dan,
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm
Master Sheng-Yen, I recall, said similar things in one of his books, where, if I recall correctly, he wrote that he doesn't generally teach shikantaza, because it doesn't work with modern people.
Sheng Yen taught, as one of the 7 or 8 "methods" that he taught, "Silent Illumination". This is similar to shikantaza. One could also work koans with him. Or employ practices based on the body, or breath.

At times, on retreat, when one's customary "method" is not any longer possible to grasp, or is unnecessary, Sheng Yen (he was my shifu since Feb., 1979) would tell a person in interview ('dokusan", say) just to "sit". This was very good, and surprisingly easy to do, under the circumstances. :|

Of course when one awakens all methods are moot, while at the same time then all one's daily activities naturally and effortlessly become one's "method(s)".

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

Caodemarte
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:23 pm

I suspect that what Jundo, a Soto teacher, or what Sheng-yen said said on this issue is little different from what a Rinzai teacher said,

“Striving to get somewhere, to attain something, is wrong effort. Is it any better, however, to try and persuade myself that I’m okay as I am, that I don’t need to do anything – after all, all beings have the Buddha nature, right? I trust you can already see what a deceptive and fruitless dead end this is. To put it bluntly, the self that is not at ease is trying to convince itself that it is. It doesn’t work....
On the one hand striving to attain something, and on the other hand trying to convince myself that I’m okay when I’m not – both are symptoms of the same dis-ease. The self, through its own will power, striving to attain some enlightened state is like being dehydrated – and then deciding to run around the block a few times. That will only make it worse. Trying to convince yourself that you’re okay when you’re not is like overeating to the point of nausea – and then deciding to wash it down with a banana split. Both are wrong effort. Seeing this much, let them both go, now and for good..What is right effort? Being fully engaged in what is right here and now – without discursive thought arising, without fabrication or contrivance of any kind. In other words, directly seeing through the present experience, whether it is one of intense pain or sublime bliss. This is the practice of right effort.” https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpres ... ctures.pdf

User avatar
Crystal
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Crystal » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:25 pm

Dan74 wrote:Like with all proselytisers, one does get the feeling that 'the lady doth protest too much' but then again, don't we all..
Is this refering to me, by any chance?
"Caodemarte" wrote:..... Seeing this much, let them both go, now and for good..What is right effort? Being fully engaged in what is right here and now – without discursive thought arising, without fabrication or contrivance of any kind. In other words, directly seeing through the present experience, whether it is one of intense pain or sublime bliss. This is the practice of right effort.”

Nice one _/|\_
Last edited by Crystal on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:28 pm

I think the Soto teacher Shunryu Suzuki told his crowd that "You are all perfect, but you can all use a little improvement".

I'd say that "improvement" comes in ways (i.e., via avenues... ) that the teacher sees will suit the practitioner.

No holds are barred, when it comes to the natural exercise of true Wisdom and true Compassion. ("Caution!!") :lol:

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Dan74 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:54 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:22 pm
Dan,
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm
Master Sheng-Yen, I recall, said similar things in one of his books, where, if I recall correctly, he wrote that he doesn't generally teach shikantaza, because it doesn't work with modern people.
Sheng Yen taught, as one of the 7 or 8 "methods" that he taught, "Silent Illumination". This is similar to shikantaza. One could also work koans with him. Or employ practices based on the body, or breath.

At times, on retreat, when one's customary "method" is not any longer possible to grasp, or is unnecessary, Sheng Yen (he was my shifu since Feb., 1979) would tell a person in interview ('dokusan", say) just to "sit". This was very good, and surprisingly easy to do, under the circumstances. :|

Of course when one awakens all methods are moot, while at the same time then all one's daily activities naturally and effortlessly become one's "method(s)".

--Joe
Joe, my memory is patchy and the books are not with me. I won't argue, my point being simply that as a stand-alone method, it is generally not effective. Again I have sat with a Soto teacher who taught in this way, but he never claimed a great deal of success. In fact, he never really claimed much of anything.

_/|\_
Crystal wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:25 pm
Dan74 wrote:Like with all proselytisers, one does get the feeling that 'the lady doth protest too much' but then again, don't we all..
Is this refering to me, by any chance?
Crystal, no. I wasn't aware that you were proselytising anything.

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:57 pm

Hi, Dan,
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:54 pm
Joe, my memory is patchy and the books are not with me. I won't argue, my point being simply that as a stand-alone method, it is generally not effective. Again I have sat with a Soto teacher who taught in this way, but he never claimed a great deal of success. In fact, he never really claimed much of anything.
Again, there were times when Master Sheng Yen individually to practitioners espoused something like shikantaza, but AT those times, the practice (not really a practice... ) was more a result of other practices, and one could enjoy this result and deepen it with one's teacher and with all the company one was with (say, a full sesshin of sangha people). It was a way of maintaining this wonderful, original, and marvelous mind, letting it work, sticking noplace, and letting it express itself: nothing to stand in its way. Diamond Sutra says:

"Abiding nowhere, let this mind work".

--Joe

p.s. (this, BTW, is the line that awakened Huineng [J.: Eno] upon his hearing it recited. He became the Sixth [and last] Patriarch of Chan [J.: Zen] ). Others put the line as, e.g., “Abiding nowhere, awakened mind arises”; and, “Abiding nowhere, bring forth this mind.”
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by [james] » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:16 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm
So what is the way out? One could embrace the reality of our striving, delusion, the worldly winds as they are, the relative truth of our existence that we are faced with and deal with them, the best that we can. One could pretend that one is liberated - beyond effort, free of defilements and neuroses, untouched by the worldy winds. Or one could reject the duality altogether and just say that it's all OK, absolute in relative, relative in the absolute, neuroses in nirvana and worldly winds in absolute peace.
Why should there be a way out? Relative truth, absolute peace, beyond, free, untouched, reject, embrace ... Duality!!! These are all “way out” words and aspirations. Take a look around ... magnificent, utterly overwhelming, misery beyond bearing, uplifting and sweeping you away. Anything else is not yet.
But even more so, the trouble for me is that it generally doesn't work. It can work, but it generally doesn't. And after investing years into it, people either honestly throw in the towel and say 'well, this was a waste of time" or they create a complex narrative to salvage their egos and pretend to themselves, that it has, whereas they may be zonking out, whispering sweet-nothings to themselves, shouting from a pulpit how this is the most radical of all practices, etc etc. I've seen it, believe me. Master Sheng-Yen, I recall, said similar things in one of his books, where, if I recall correctly, he wrote that he doesn't generally teach shikantaza, because it doesn't work with modern people.
How does one distinguish what works and what doesn’t work? If today I can say it’s working and tomorrow I feel that my effort is a waste of time, does that mean that yesterday was also, in fact, a waste of time? Probably yes and no, right? What I like about shikantaza is that I can never really know what the heck is going on. Working or not working is not even on the page.

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Dan74 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:15 pm

I never really know what's going on, shikantaza or not. :)

As for working or not working, it's probably a question for a teacher but we see it in our lives, relationships, what we do or not do, how much we truly give, etc. No?

By way out, I meant that there are paradoxes in practice that we somehow need to face.

" magnificent, utterly overwhelming, misery beyond bearing, uplifting and sweeping you away. Anything else is not yet" or too late... I dont know, James. If not yet, then there is a door open to seeking, no?

Caodemarte
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:34 pm

There are Rinzai teachers who advise their students to “switch” to Shikantaza. There are Soto teachers who advise the reverse, like Harada Sekkei Roshi. The problem with letting your own effort get in your own way (the dog chasing its own tail) is not unique to any one method, although some methods may be more useful to particular students.

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Meido » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:50 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:34 pm
There are Rinzai teachers who advise their students to “switch” to Shikantaza. There are Soto teachers who advise the reverse, like Harada Sekkei Roshi. The problem with letting your own effort get in your own way (the dog chasing its own tail) is not unique to any one method, although some methods may be more useful to particular students.
I agree with the gist of your statement, C, except to point out that Rinzai practice does not use the term "shikantaza," and I don't know of any Rinzai teachers that advise their students to switch to the Soto practice called shikantaza. The reason I can say the latter is that Rinzai training already contains something that (in the Rinzai view) is not different from what the word "shikantaza" signifies i.e. the hokkyo zanmai practice.

There is a specific point in the Rinzai path at which this practice is to be taken up secretly and intensively for a minimum of 3 years. Classically the Go-i (Five Ranks of Tozan) koans mark this point. Of course, as you point out, different students may require different approaches, and in reality there is no set "curriculum."

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by bokki » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:20 pm

this is extremely interesting.
Thank You Meido Roshi, Cao.
Caodemarte wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:34 pm
There are Rinzai teachers who advise their students to “switch” to Shikantaza. There are Soto teachers who advise the reverse, like Harada Sekkei Roshi. The problem with letting your own effort get in your own way (the dog chasing its own tail) is not unique to any one method, although some methods may be more useful to particular students.
I agree with the gist of your statement, C, except to point out that Rinzai practice does not use the term "shikantaza," and I don't know of any Rinzai teachers that advise their students to switch to the Soto practice called shikantaza. The reason I can say the latter is that Rinzai training already contains something that (in the Rinzai view) is not different from what the word "shikantaza" signifies i.e. the hokkyo zanmai practice.

There is a specific point in the Rinzai path at which this practice is to be taken up secretly and intensively for a minimum of 3 years. Classically the Go-i (Five Ranks of Tozan) koans mark this point. Of course, as you point out, different students may require different approaches, and in reality there is no set "curriculum."

~ Meido



thank u.
i have seen, read and always was intereste.
wht is the diff, if any, btwn hokkyo zanmai an shikantaza.
also,from ur explanation,
hokkyo zanmai is tought to seniour students,
on d levewl of 5 rancks.
>?
did i understand this well..
it is a pleasure if u could detail a bit. thnx
:namaste:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by bokki » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:36 pm

i also find it interesting..
that the five ranks,
by Dongshan and Caoshan,
plz corrct me if wrong,
are actualy the teachings of the fathers
of Soto..
lol


lol,
let me b real short.
may i?


how about Bodhicitta,
is that to much to ask, please.
thank you
:namaste:
b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Meido » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:48 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:20 pm
wht is the diff, if any, btwn hokkyo zanmai an shikantaza.
also,from ur explanation,
hokkyo zanmai is tought to seniour students,
on d levewl of 5 rancks.
The jewel mirror samadhi (hokkyo zanmai) isn't a method or something taught really. It is just the condition of someone who, emerging from the recognition of their nature, returns again and again to it, practicing to integrate it seamlessly within all activities. In other words, it is the experience that everything one encounters is precisely one's original face. This practice is the way in which the recognition we call kensho is made to penetrate the body-mind. For this one needs a teacher who can help to clarify the essential points.

It's not really anything to do with being senior or junior. It is a path of practice taking recognition of one's nature as its basis, however, so if one has not entered that gate - or if one has entered the gate but then not continued to practice properly afterward - then one is likely to slip into conceptualization and subtle self-affirmation rather than the living experience.

RE Tozan and the others, all of them are all our fathers. Properly understood, there is no difference in essential teachings of Rinzai, Soto, etc.

RE Bodhicitta, see the post I made in the "Words of Wisdom" topic!

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

Caodemarte
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:34 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:50 pm
I agree with the gist of your statement, C, except to point out that Rinzai practice does not use the term "shikantaza," and I don't know of any Rinzai teachers that advise their students to switch to the Soto practice called shikantaza...
I personally know one Rinzai teacher who did so (confirmed by the teacher and the student) because she (the student) was “trying too hard,” meaning forceful intellectual wrong effort, I believe. The same teacher has often stated that he finds the current division between Soto and Rinzai in Japan artificial and partisan, certainly not in the spirit of Rinzai. As you point out, both have common ancestors and there is no essential difference in their teachings.

Speaking of a different heir of Rinzai, Sheng-yen would advise going to both huatou as well as silent illumination retreats and try both “methods.”

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:40 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:34 pm
Speaking of a different heir of Rinzai, Sheng-yen would advise going to both huatou and silent illumination retreats.
Yes, he did that, in later years.

Though I started with him in 1979, I also attended both kinds of those differently-dedicated 7-day retreats of his in those years. Some books of talks from some of those retreats came out later, you may know.

:namaste:

--Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
michaeljc
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:15 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by michaeljc » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:02 am

Mmm - so more support for shikantaza being a state resulting from practice - not a method

Call me lazy but I spend most of my time on the cushion "just sitting" allowing zazen its magic

For me, anyway, it is a method, as is following breath.We can follow the breath in a number of ways

I have noticed that quite naturally, at times during settled zazen the breath becomes extremely light, gentle and shallow

Could you comment on this please Meido and/or Guo Gu

:namaste: to all

m

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by [james] » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:45 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:34 pm
Hi!, James. Warm Springtime wishes... .
Warm greetings Dhamma brother. I hope that you are well and happy and that your bodhisattva spirit is peaceful and undiminished.

james

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Chasing Enlightenment

Post by jundocohen » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:12 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm

This latter is what Rev Jundo seems to be advocating, as far as I can make out. The trouble I have with it is not the teaching that there is no place to go and nothing 'beyond' to attain (from Huang-Po, Huineng, etc etc) it's been the standard teaching in Zen since time immemorial. The trouble is not even that one could make this the sole practice, this complete letting go of all striving (one Soto teacher I sat with taught pretty much the same too) and it is completely fine. It is perhaps the rejection of complete liberation as even a possibility.
Point of clarification, if I may! :-)

One sits in the wholeness and "one thing needed to do-ness" of Just Sitting. Then, one does not merely "pretend that one is liberated - beyond effort, free of defilements and neuroses, untouched by the worldy winds" but one actually experiences so. (It is a bit like saying that, when one plays Willie Loman on stage in "Death of A Salesman," one actually comes to a point of experiencing being Willie).

However, one then gets up and gets into all the rest of life, dropping to the best of one's ability all the excess desires, friction and anger, and divided thinking of ignorance. This dropping of desires. divided "this vs. that" thinking etc. is now much aided by the above experiencing of "beyond effort, no neuroses" instantaneously encountered again and again on the cushion and gradually carved in the bones. Each time we act in life free of "excess desires, anger, divided thinking" etc. we actually manifest Buddha, bring Buddha to life in this life. We get better at this over time too (and if you believe in future lives, perhaps we do become that perfect Buddha sometime down the road. In the meantime, every Buddhalike act by us in this life is also Buddha perfectly).

This is Master Dogen's view of Practice-Enlighenment. It is not merely sitting on our ass complacent, nor in some false "nothing need be done." Neither is it constantly striving to be better. Rather, it is getting better and acting better while, at the same time, experiencing that "nothing need be done" and that (in our Buddha aspect) nothing need be better. Better yet nothing need be better, so we live in a better way. We fix the flaws of life because there are so many flaws in need of fixing, yet there is also never a flaw and never has been from the startless start.

People throw in the towel on all manner of Buddhist Practices because they think them a waste of time or don't really get them. Not everything clicks with everything, and we all like different ice cream flavors. Frankly, as I have said before, I do not believe that Master Sheng-yen understood what is Shikantaza. Of course, nothing works with everyone.

However, thinking about this (and non-thinking about this too :106: ): In this world where we constantly chase, feel lack, dissatisfaction, frustration and sometimes anger at life situations and other people, and thus constantly try to fill those holes (with consumer purchases, alcohol and drugs, sometimes violence and the like) ...

... does it not seem like a very good medicine if we can teach people to experience the wholeness and peace of "nothing lacking?"

Further, if we can teach them this "no goal" and "nothing to fix" even as they also continue to live in a world where we also have goals (the crops in the field still need to be grown, and we have children to raise) and problems to fix ... thus a way of life of goals without goals, fixing with nothing to fix simultaneously (thus free of the frustration calling for excess consumer purchases, drugs to fill the holes inside and the the rest) ...

... does that not strike you as a powerful medicine for the Dukkha and accompanying world problems that derive from that? Does that not strike you as realizing the Pure Land right here?

Anyway, I feel so. I hope it is clearer now.

Gassho, Jundo

PS -
Again I have sat with a Soto teacher who taught in this way, but he never claimed a great deal of success. In fact, he never really claimed much of anything.
Yes, it does sound like you had a lousy teacher and wasted your time. I am sorry about that. Fortunately, no moment of time can be wasted, and nothing is not a shining jewel ... yet some things are lousy and time ill spent. (A Koan)
Last edited by jundocohen on Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:27 am, edited 8 times in total.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

Post Reply