Mental States and Zen

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

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lindama
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by lindama » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:52 am

talking about mental states is not where it's at. yawn

AND, as far as I can see.... this topic was not inititiated by bodhi.

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boda
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Re: Buddhism & psychedelics

Post by boda » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:57 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:00 am
The “solution” is to completely drop body and mind. That includes dropping the concept of dropping, etc. All states are dropped or seen through.
And if a tree drops in the forest it doesn’t make a sound, because the tree dropped dropping.

I get it now! :jump:

narhwal90
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:29 am

Having spent the last 5 days steady doses of strong painkillers i will certainly attest tohow helpful it is to be able to identify and quickly handle them. the "sky flowers" become prominent, complex and; compelling. "this is not me, this is not mine" is so important.

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Re: Buddhism & psychedelics

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:59 am

bodhi wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:57 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:00 am
The “solution” is to completely drop body and mind. That includes dropping the concept of dropping, etc. All states are dropped or seen through.
And if a tree drops in the forest it doesn’t make a sound, because the tree dropped dropping.

I get it now! :jump:
Seriously bodhi, if you have no clue what you're talking about, don't talk.

By the way, Here is a Dogen koan I found when googling for dropping body and mind. It's good!
Dogen studied with Master Rujing. One evening during the intensive summer training, in the first year of Pao-chang, 1225, Rujing shouted at a disciple, “When you study under a master, you must drop the body and mind. What is the use of single-minded intense sleeping?”
Sitting right beside this monastic, Dogen suddenly attained great enlightenment. Immediately, he went up to the abbot’s room and burned incense. Rujing said, “Why are you burning incense?” Dogen said, “Body and mind have been dropped off.” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off. The dropped-off body and mind.” Dogen said, “This may only be a temporary ability. Please don’t approve me arbitrarily.” Rujing said, “I am not.” Dogen said, “What is that which isn’t given arbitrary approval?” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off.” Dogen bowed. Rujing said, “The dropping off is dropped.”

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fuki
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:18 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:29 am
Having spent the last 5 days steady doses of strong painkillers i will certainly attest tohow helpful it is to be able to identify and quickly handle them. the "sky flowers" become prominent, complex and; compelling. "this is not me, this is not mine" is so important.
Dis/Un-covering who you are by knowing what you are not is a most efficient prescription and (hopefully) joyous experience on the path.

Are you talking about the side-effects of painkillers here or just mental states in general?

Anyways hope your recovery goes well.
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narhwal90
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:21 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:18 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:29 am
Having spent the last 5 days steady doses of strong painkillers i will certainly attest tohow helpful it is to be able to identify and quickly handle them. the "sky flowers" become prominent, complex and; compelling. "this is not me, this is not mine" is so important.
Dis/Un-covering who you are by knowing what you are not is a most efficient prescription and (hopefully) joyous experience on the path.

Are you talking about the side-effects of painkillers here or just mental states in general?

Anyways hope your recovery goes well.
Given that ones mental condition is even afftected by the state if ones bowels, i dont think is or is-not distinction of those caused by painkillers is useful. in this case keeping present amidst the continuous sometimes hallucinatory and always varying conditions is the game, perhaps only different in parameters from zazen in a matt

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fuki
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:29 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:21 pm

Given that ones mental condition is even afftected by the state if ones bowels, i dont think is or is-not distinction of those caused by painkillers is useful. in this case keeping present amidst the continuous sometimes hallucinatory and always varying conditions is the game, perhaps only different in parameters from zazen in a matt
Sure, it's all the engrossing play of consciousness without distinguishing. I did ask because I noticed myself certain prescription medicine or alcohol for instance this body-mind seems to refuse since around January, while prior I could consume anything without much (aware) negative consequences, might be the perks/results of "zen training" dont know.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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boda
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Re: Buddhism & psychedelics

Post by boda » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:33 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:59 am
bodhi wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:57 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:00 am
The “solution” is to completely drop body and mind. That includes dropping the concept of dropping, etc. All states are dropped or seen through.
And if a tree drops in the forest it doesn’t make a sound, because the tree dropped dropping.

I get it now! :jump:
Seriously bodhi, if you have no clue what you're talking about, don't talk.

By the way, Here is a Dogen koan I found when googling for dropping body and mind. It's good!
Dogen studied with Master Rujing. One evening during the intensive summer training, in the first year of Pao-chang, 1225, Rujing shouted at a disciple, “When you study under a master, you must drop the body and mind. What is the use of single-minded intense sleeping?”
Sitting right beside this monastic, Dogen suddenly attained great enlightenment. Immediately, he went up to the abbot’s room and burned incense. Rujing said, “Why are you burning incense?” Dogen said, “Body and mind have been dropped off.” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off. The dropped-off body and mind.” Dogen said, “This may only be a temporary ability. Please don’t approve me arbitrarily.” Rujing said, “I am not.” Dogen said, “What is that which isn’t given arbitrary approval?” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off.” Dogen bowed. Rujing said, “The dropping off is dropped.”
You needed to google dropping body & mind and then say that I don’t know what I’m talking about? :lol:

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Fruitzilla
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Re: Buddhism & psychedelics

Post by Fruitzilla » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:49 pm

bodhi wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:33 pm
Fruitzilla wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:59 am
bodhi wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:57 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:00 am
The “solution” is to completely drop body and mind. That includes dropping the concept of dropping, etc. All states are dropped or seen through.
And if a tree drops in the forest it doesn’t make a sound, because the tree dropped dropping.

I get it now! :jump:
Seriously bodhi, if you have no clue what you're talking about, don't talk.

By the way, Here is a Dogen koan I found when googling for dropping body and mind. It's good!
Dogen studied with Master Rujing. One evening during the intensive summer training, in the first year of Pao-chang, 1225, Rujing shouted at a disciple, “When you study under a master, you must drop the body and mind. What is the use of single-minded intense sleeping?”
Sitting right beside this monastic, Dogen suddenly attained great enlightenment. Immediately, he went up to the abbot’s room and burned incense. Rujing said, “Why are you burning incense?” Dogen said, “Body and mind have been dropped off.” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off. The dropped-off body and mind.” Dogen said, “This may only be a temporary ability. Please don’t approve me arbitrarily.” Rujing said, “I am not.” Dogen said, “What is that which isn’t given arbitrary approval?” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off.” Dogen bowed. Rujing said, “The dropping off is dropped.”
You needed to google dropping body & mind and then say that I don’t know what I’m talking about? :lol:
Where did I say I needed to? Do you have anything sensible to contribute regarding the Dogen story?

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boda
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by boda » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:58 pm

No.

The kind of, dare I say *state*, we’re talking about has been identified neurologically as corresponding to a deactivation of the DMN (default mode network). The default mode network is most commonly shown to be active when a person is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest, such as during daydreaming and mind-wandering (“monkey mind”). But it is also active when the individual is thinking about others, thinking about themselves, remembering the past, and planning for the future. The seat of the self, essentially.

This relates to the psychedelics topic because, for whatever reason, these compounds suppress the DMN.

Ps: this is the third time I’ve tried to respond but posts keep being deleted for some reason
Last edited by boda on Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Caodemarte
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:34 pm

Just a reminder that this is a split off topic that grew out of Buddhism & Psychedelics in the lounge at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=359&p=6177&hilit=psychedelics#p6177. Discussion on psychedelics goes there. Discussion of the more general topic of mental states and their importance or non-importance in Zen goes here.

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Re: Buddhism & psychedelics

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:10 am

b.,
bodhi wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:46 pm
Dropping body and mind” sounds an awful lot like a state. So, how is it not a state?
This is interesting, b.

I'd say that dropping away of body and mind is not a state: it is a condition.

When we discussed "states", it was states of MIND. When mind and body drop away, well that is a condition (although I won't say a condition of what; maybe we can get into that some other time and thread).

When mind drops away, there are no states of mind. This is when Emptiness reigns, in all the activities of daily life and daily work, and the empty nature of all things can quite actually be seen. If artists could see this, they'd change their ways of painting, especially of Nature.

But this dropping away is the result of a yoga, and not an easy yoga, and I think, although there may be no statistics in the West on people awakening in Western sanghas, I think it is a scarce or rare happening even where people practice this yoga to whatever extent they can uphold. But, it's a consummation devoutly to be wished, primarily because it is the end of suffering (at least for a time), and because true Wisdom and true Compassion can then arise and operate freely, in seamless response to conditions and happenings and events, just as they occur, spontaneously. We also then can and do use freely all our natural original Human inheritances. This is part of what's meant by "the miraculous workings of 'this wondrous Mind' ", and phrases like that in classical Ch'an and Zen Buddhist literature.

Well, I'll take a breath... . ;)

Mostly, I wanted to mention that falling-off of body and mind is a condition; and so, then, there are no more "states" of either of them for a time.

--Joe

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boda
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Re: Buddhism & psychedelics

Post by boda » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:26 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:10 am
b.,
bodhi wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:46 pm
Dropping body and mind” sounds an awful lot like a state. So, how is it not a state?
This is interesting, b.

I'd say that dropping away of body and mind is not a state: it is a condition.
A condition is defined as the state of something, especially with regard to its appearance, quality, or working order.

Your distinction is meaningless. Can we assume that doesn’t matter to you?
When we discussed "states", it was states of MIND. When mind and body drop away, well that is a condition (although I won't say a condition of what
Always leave them wanting more. That’s show business. :)
When mind drops away, there are no states of mind. This is when Emptiness reigns, in all the activities of daily life and daily work, and the empty nature of all things can quite actually be seen. If artists could see this, they'd change their ways of painting, especially of Nature.

But this dropping away is the result of a yoga, and not an easy yoga, and I think, although there may be no statistics in the West on people awakening in Western sanghas, I think it is a scarce or rare happening even where people practice this yoga to whatever extent they can uphold. But, it's a consummation devoutly to be wished, primarily because it is the end of suffering (at least for a time), and because true Wisdom and true Compassion can then arise and operate freely, in seamless response to conditions and happenings and events, just as they occur, spontaneously. We also then can and do use freely all our natural original Human inheritances. This is part of what's meant by "the miraculous workings of 'this wondrous Mind' ", and phrases like that in classical Ch'an and Zen Buddhist literature.
Hollow religious narrative.

I’ll restate the question in case you forgot what it was and care enough to respond in a meaningful way: “Dropping body and mind” sounds an awful lot like a state. So, how is it not a state?

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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:43 am

b.,

You've read my reply. What I'm describing is a lived-experience, not a dictionary look-up exercise. The experience is Human, not religious in particular, and because of the Emptiness aspect of it, it's good not to glom appurtenances onto it, because they will not and cannot stick.

With no mind, there are not states of mind.

The condition of no-mind lasts as long as it is naturally enabled to do so by the strength of the opening initially, and then the continuous maintenance given it by the practitioner in the meantime, until it erodes. Eventual erosion seems inevitable. But multiple openings (awakenings) are possible; we have, by the way, a nice write-up on that in the publicly-available autobiography of Zen Master Hakuin, for example.

If words do not satisfy, "do the experiment", as we say in empirical Science. All of us who are actually really interested, I think, do. Again, it is a yoga. Webster does not have the razor's edge on it.

Rgds,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:52 am

Hmm,

When an inmate's prison-sentence drops away to zero, the zero is no longer a state of the prison-sentence: The prison sentence is GONE.

What there is, then, is a condition, a condition of the fellow who was an inmate. The condition of the fellow then is "free". Or, Freedom.

Freedom, All,

--Joe

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boda
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by boda » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:04 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:52 am
Hmm,

When an inmate's prison-sentence drops away to zero, the zero is no longer a state of the prison-sentence: The prison sentence is GONE.

What there is, then, is a condition, a condition of the fellow who was an inmate. The condition of the fellow then is "free". Or, Freedom.

Freedom, All,

--Joe
Maybe you should stop thinking about this.

I appreciate your efforts and creative thinking. :namaste:

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lindama
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by lindama » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:22 am

my teacher was not one to talk about freedom. funny thing, he was most free

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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:23 am

bodhi wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:04 am
Maybe you should stop thinking about this.
No, no maybes about it. You should stop, too. If you haven't done the experiment, you might care to do the experiment, as that's what would help.
b. wrote:I appreciate your efforts and creative thinking.
Sure. BTW, if Art interests you, on the painting reference I'd say that there are analogs (but not what I would call "matches") to the kind of vision that opens up. One can look in the work of some of the painters of the "Luminist Movement" School in America (1850-1875). A little bit exaggerated version can be seen in some of the work of Maxfield Parrish. Some Old Masters, especially where chiaroscuro is strong, have some examples, too.

But to see, say, a bouquet of Roses, in this condition is astonishing and quite a study, or contemplation. Even dead things, say, a pile of sticks on the ground, have a life, and show a continuing participation in life, with many connections to causes and conditions.

I've encouraged some of my artist friends, but they haven't taken up the (Zen Buddhist... ) practice(s); and I myself don't paint very well, if I say so myself.

--Joe

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boda
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by boda » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:39 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:23 am
bodhi wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:04 am
Maybe you should stop thinking about this.
No, no maybes about it. You should stop, too.
I’m not having difficulty answering a simple question so, as I see it, there’s no need for me to stop.

I don’t mean to sound ungrateful for your efforts. :115:

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fuki
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Re: Mental States and Zen

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:18 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:52 am
Hmm,

When an inmate's prison-sentence drops away to zero, the zero is no longer a state of the prison-sentence: The prison sentence is GONE.

What there is, then, is a condition, a condition of the fellow who was an inmate. The condition of the fellow then is "free". Or, Freedom.

Freedom, All,

--Joe
Another fine metaphor, thanks.

Relating to your metaphor I would say that a state is indeed like a personal prison for instance "I am lonely, I am angry/sad" etc while freedom from any particular state then whatever appears has no place to land and doesn't obstruct, so one is not bound by appearances that it becomes a state/prison (of mind) or an identification.

This is what I call "non-dwelling"
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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