A Definition of Enlightenment

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boda
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A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:13 pm

In another topic Clyde claimed that a definition of enlightenment is as follows.
David Brazier wrote:Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.
The line, as far as I can tell, is from Brazier's book called The New Buddhism.

The line that precedes this one is, "The spiritual sickness of the whites is but the other side of the same coin as the physical sickness and deprivation of the blacks. You cannot cure one without the other."

Very odd, in suggesting that whites suffer a spiritual sickness that the blacks to not, and that the blacks suffer a physical sickness that the whites do not, but I digress. Later in the same section of "What is Enlightenment?" Brazier claims that, metaphorically speaking, Buddhism is a method to wash people clean on the inside so that they may be healthy again. That I can agree with, whereas I can't agree that enlightenment is about seeing and renouncing whatever harm that you may be involved in. The latter may or may not be a natural result of 'getting clean on the inside', but it's not what enlightenment means.

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by Larry » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:01 pm

boda wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:13 pm
The line that precedes this one is, "The spiritual sickness of the whites is but the other side of the same coin as the physical sickness and deprivation of the blacks. You cannot cure one without the other."
Seems like a slightly provocative reworking of the old Material West vs Spiritual East.

Osho's solution was Zorba the Buddha :mrgreen:

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:20 pm
boda wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:39 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:10 am
p.s: As it says in my signature below:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism
Is this what you actually believe?

To me this sounds like a catchphrase that may appear to enhance the profundity of your ‘do no harm’ ethic.
More a matter of experience then "belief", I agree with that statement, "doing no harm" is not simple ethics or a code of conduct it is the awareness of seeing on the most subtle level our self-delusions and the harm we inflict on others and renouncing them, "renouncing" isn't (perse) a volitional act of will where the individual decides to do/undo anything on a personal conviction of morality, but a transformation of one's entire being which cannot be grasped or located/categorized, these are definitely undarkening moments.
If it's a matter of experience then that means anyone who believes this way is enlightened? But the thing is, anyone can commit to seeing what harm their involved in and renouncing it at any time. Or are you suggesting that doing this consciously doesn't express enlightened intention or behavior? That would be weird.
I've seen examples in non-religious persons who due to a sudden transformation gave up decades of harmful behaviour, like alcoholism for instance. I've personally witnessed ppl dropping on their knees crying and after that being no more capable to continue the previous unnatural behaviour, some ppl might refer to this experience as "God" since (conditioned relative/dualistic)minds still have the habit of attributing "it" to something.
So you've seen people have profound experiences and it changing them for the better. Is giving up alcohol, for instance, what enlightenment means?
Nevertheless these are undarkening moments which have nothing to do with the "person" the intellect or volitional activity. "Doing no harm" goes much deeper as we might think what it means based on an intellectual or moral compass of interpretations upon perception.
According to David Brazier it means enlightenment. Was Brazier absent a moral compass and intellect when he first made this claim?

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:29 pm

Bodhi, no one can pin down "enlightenment" and say "this is it" what David Brazier meant by those words you'd have to ask him.
I can relate to those words, I wasn't commenting on what I think enlightenment "is"' or "is not" I was only commenting on my experience/observations in relation to the quote. The quote itself means nothing, I don't exist apart from the quote and the quote doesn't exist apart from me, hence whatever I or anyone else say is relative, it's pointless to me to discuss whether a quote is this or that from the author's mind. I only acknowledged from my own experience that "do no harm" is much more then thinking we aren't doing any harm, that we're often or possibly manifesting harmful behaviour/activity without being aware of it, until the 3 poisons are eradicated by it's root, I would say I'm involved in harm, not volitionally, but as practise deepens/matures one find's a lot of self-deluded tight screws which weren't perceived before. That's how I related to the quote, personally not interested to define "enlightenment" was only talking about "undarkening transformations" which are many, how this relates to a Buddhist concept of "Enlightenment" is not really my cup of tea. So the quote to me symbolizes an continuous and ever deepening experience of life itself. How you or anyone else relates to the quote is different ofcourse, sometimes we find unity in our expressions sometimes not, I personally don't see any room for debate regarding the quote though, everyone can share, like how David Brazier did, or clyde, or me. Don't see any room for "yes or no" "wrong or right" To me the sky looks blue, to another animal depending on the vehicle it doesn't look blue, if someone says it's green, I'm happy that they share as a good reminder that things are never what they appear to be.... :) I would say that "enlightenment" is neither blue nor green, nor is it seperate from blue or green.
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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by bokki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:11 pm

thnx fuki, boda, an all
i am not really sure how come u came up with such a
question?

if u do not know what kensho or satori is
y blabla?

enlightenment is the direct
definite seeing
of the quantum soup
all existence comes from.

now, if u doubt the words of d elders,
saying
see it at least once..
and then go ranting bout states
emptiness
compassion
existence or non..
i mean..

cant u read the old
masters?

so, as to head up,
u think u need a definition?

how bout experiencing
the truth..
enlightenment?

so u can call urself a zen student.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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boda
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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:29 pm
Bodhi, no one can pin down "enlightenment" and say "this is it" what David Brazier meant by those words you'd have to ask him.
I can relate to those words, I wasn't commenting on what I think enlightenment "is"' or "is not" I was only commenting on my experience/observations in relation to the quote. The quote itself means nothing, I don't exist apart from the quote and the quote doesn't exist apart from me, hence whatever I or anyone else say is relative, it's pointless to me to discuss whether a quote is this or that from the author's mind. I only acknowledged from my own experience that "do no harm" is much more then thinking we aren't doing any harm, that we're often or possibly manifesting harmful behaviour/activity without being aware of it, until the 3 poisons are eradicated by it's root, I would say I'm involved in harm, not volitionally, but as practise deepens/matures one find's a lot of self-deluded tight screws which weren't perceived before. That's how I related to the quote, personally not interested to define "enlightenment" was only talking about "undarkening transformations" which are many, how this relates to a Buddhist concept of "Enlightenment" is not really my cup of tea. So the quote to me symbolizes an continuous and ever deepening experience of life itself. How you or anyone else relates to the quote is different ofcourse, sometimes we find unity in our expressions sometimes not, I personally don't see any room for debate regarding the quote though, everyone can share, like how David Brazier did, or clyde, or me. Don't see any room for "yes or no" "wrong or right" To me the sky looks blue, to another animal depending on the vehicle it doesn't look blue, if someone says it's green, I'm happy that they share as a good reminder that things are never what they appear to be.... :) I would say that "enlightenment" is neither blue nor green, nor is it seperate from blue or green.
No wrong or right, okay, then you should have no problem with my new claim that enlightenment means torturing sentient beings for pleasure.
Really givin'em a good whack. :116: That's enlightenment! :D

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 pm
No wrong or right, okay, then you should have no problem with my new claim that enlightenment means torturing sentient beings for pleasure.
Really givin'em a good whack. :116: That's enlightenment! :D
If I'd see anyone torturing sentient beings I won't have any wondering thoughts or self-grasping narration whether if such activity or your 'own' occuring/relating activity to that event is enlightening or not, nor do I suppose that you would ;)
Nevertheless we can perceive for ourself if activity is self-centered or symptoms of the 3 poisons if it occurs, that's how we learn from observing the mind.

If you want to do so on a forum, be my guest, sure there are moments I can relate to your observations/experiences and even "agree" with them. :P

ps if you would "save" a sentient being, would you thereafter have an internal narrative whether it was enlightened activity or not, or would you ask others?
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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by Larry » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:48 pm

bokki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:11 pm
if u do not know what kensho or satori is
y blabla?

enlightenment is the direct
definite seeing
of the quantum soup
all existence comes from.

now, if u doubt the words of d elders,
saying
see it at least once..
and then go ranting bout states
emptiness
compassion
existence or non..
i mean..

cant u read the old
masters?

so, as to head up,
u think u need a definition?

how bout experiencing
the truth..
enlightenment?

so u can call urself a zen student.
:bow2:

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boda
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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:11 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 pm
No wrong or right, okay, then you should have no problem with my new claim that enlightenment means torturing sentient beings for pleasure.
Really givin'em a good whack. :116: That's enlightenment! :D
I can relate to your observations/experiences and even "agree" with them. :P
You, Sir, are a monster!

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:17 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:11 pm
You, Sir, are a monster!
:lol:

You're the out of context Master, do you work for any media-news organisation perhaps :P
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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:23 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:17 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:11 pm
You, Sir, are a monster!
:lol:

You're the out of context Master, do you work for any media-news organisation perhaps :P
Context is an illusion generated by the dualistic OverMind. :jaw:

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:34 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:23 pm
Context is an illusion generated by the dualistic OverMind. :jaw:
Pretty sure this whole topic gets contexted right into the lounge :mrgreen:

ps "Context is an illusion generated by the dualistic OverMind" could be fine art for a drawing or script.
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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:38 pm

b.,
boda wrote:In another topic Clyde claimed that a definition of enlightenment is as follows.
David Brazier wrote:Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.
I'd say that what Clyde features, there, is but one important fascicle of a million that can said "out of" the awakened state.

For example: The awakened state means that you have a soybean on your forehead, and you know (feel) very clearly that you do.

Or, "everything is bathed in moonlight". And, Wisdom and Compassion is what miraculously comes spontaneously and simultaneously out of this emptiness.

I'd quibble with Clyde's quotation as follows: In the awakened state, there is no doing of harm, and no need to renounce anything.

It's only before awakening that there is harm-doing, and any possibility at all of standing in "opposition" to it, by carrying-out correct practice, and definitely awakening.

Of course, there is no end to practice, and so please don't think that there is, or can be. The Three Poisons arise endlessly (or try to).

As I see and experience it,

--Joe

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by clyde » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:38 pm
I'd quibble with Clyde's quotation as follows: In the awakened state, there is no doing of harm, and no need to renounce anything.
A most excellent quibble :)
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:04 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:38 pm
b.,
boda wrote:In another topic Clyde claimed that a definition of enlightenment is as follows.
David Brazier wrote:Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.
I'd say that what Clyde features, there, is but one important fascicle of a million that can said "out of" the awakened state.

For example: The awakened state means that you have a soybean on your forehead, and you know (feel) very clearly that you do.

Or, "everything is bathed in moonlight". And, Wisdom and Compassion is what miraculously comes spontaneously and simultaneously out of this emptiness.

I'd quibble with Clyde's quotation as follows: In the awakened state, there is no doing of harm, and no need to renounce anything.

It's only before awakening that there is harm-doing, and any possibility at all of standing in "opposition" to it, by carrying-out correct practice, and definitely awakening.

Of course, there is no end to practice, and so please don't think that there is, or can be. The Three Poisons arise endlessly (or try to).

As I see and experience it,

--Joe
The fact that you claim there's no end to practice pretty much disqualifies the whole kit and caboodle. :cry:

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:13 pm

b.,
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:04 pm
The fact that you claim there's no end to practice pretty much disqualifies the whole kit and caboodle. :cry:
Sure, no-kay. If you see it this way, you confirm that you are not a Zen Buddhist practitioner (nor even a Zen Buddhist theorist).

What shall we talk about next, then: Any ideas? Start a new (non- Zen Buddhist) thread, if you will. I'm keen on pedestrian interpretations of Quantum Mechanics, lately. Well, and, as usual, Cosmological theories of Universe/Multiverse. But I also love almost all the world(s), besides.

--Joe

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 pm

What is a Zen Buddhist theorist?

And what I mean is that claiming that there's no end to practice is like going down a road some distance and then claiming that the road just goes on and on forever. You can't know how far the road goes or where it ends unless you've traversed it.

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:38 pm

hi, boda,
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 pm
What is a Zen Buddhist theorist?
It's off-topic, but of course a mere theorist is someone who is not an experimentalist/practitioner.

Let's say it's somebody who's read tons of Suzuki, Watts, and others, who in fact have nothing to do with practice.... , but who may be nonetheless enthusiastic about the whole deal, as they've heard of it. Well, that's fine and dandy, when it comes to theory, or description, but it contains nothing of the sharing of practical experience. "Reporting" (or "hearsay", in the case of Watts' reiterating, e.g.) is not sharing of experience, but is third-person material.

--Joe

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:33 am

b.,
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 pm
And what I mean is that claiming that there's no end to practice is like going down a road some distance and then claiming that the road just goes on and on forever. You can't know how far the road goes or where it ends unless you've traversed it.
Exactly.

And when you've traversed it, and seen it limits in the traversal, you know that there is "maintenance" involved, else all will revert to "before".

This is the continuing practice after awakening that teachers will tell you about, if you contact them and are in their care, say. Ask Meido, or others.

--Joe

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Re: A Definition of Enlightenment

Post by boda » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:56 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:33 am
b.,
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 pm
And what I mean is that claiming that there's no end to practice is like going down a road some distance and then claiming that the road just goes on and on forever. You can't know how far the road goes or where it ends unless you've traversed it.
Exactly.

And when you've traversed it, and seen it limits in the traversal, you know that there is "maintenance" involved, else all will revert to "before".

This is the continuing practice after awakening that teachers will tell you about, if you contact them and are in their care, say. Ask Meido, or others.

--Joe
If you’re maintaining something then you must know something about what you’re maintaining, otherwise you couldn’t maintain it. So is what you’re maintaining the ability to see what harm you are involved in and renouncing it?

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