The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

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boda
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The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 pm

Lately I've been noticing on my meditation timer app the number of people meditating for the day. This number is displayed on the home screen so you can't miss it whenever you open the app. The number is always between 300k - 400k. Quite a high number, in my estimation, although the number does represents the total global usage. There are about a dozen regular meditators in my town who show up, and this is more that the number who show up at the local zen sitting group at the Buddhist Center.

I imagine that most of these meditators are not part of a traditional practice with a teacher and all that jazz. I have no justification for this imagining, it's just a guess. This got me thinking about cultural trends and the general declining interest in Buddhism and the rising interest in secular forms of contemplation. So, of course, I checked google trends in order to get to the absolute truth of the matter. :)

Screen Shot 2018-07-05 at 1.19.26 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-07-05 at 1.19.26 PM.png (169.22 KiB) Viewed 274 times
Sure enough, mindfulness is on the rise and Zen is on the decline.

Your thoughts?

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by fuki » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:27 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 pm
Sure enough, mindfulness is on the rise and Zen is on the decline.

Your thoughts?
I can only speak from local observations stemming from the last 15 years or so, with locally I mean ppl I know from a few towns around here and not commenting on practisioners of Zen/Buddhism who are dedicated without any doubt;

Locally here I noticed 2000/2008-ish that many people were into Zen/Buddhism, (again commenting on those new to Buddhism) that which they call Buddhism (the regular Buddha quotes about "peace/love") a few years later I noticed the popularity gone and declining ever since, because Buddhism (or any true inquiry) is not for everyone and is a direct confrontation with ourselfs (or what we think ourselfs to be) Many of those ppl are now (or already given up) practising mindfulness, it seems to suit them better then the direct confrontational path of Zen/Buddhism (or advaita etc). Since about 2 years I notice many given up on mindfulness too but a few have sticked to it. I can't comment on global statistics but I guess these "ups and downs" in stats happen every decade (or whatever time span) as for secular forms of contemplation, I think that has much to do with the internet and the various availabilities it serves when in the past ppl were more 'dependend' on attending churches/sanghas etc and follow an exclusive religion.

ps did you notice more zen teacher now also incorporate "awareness" into their methods/talks since Tibetian and also advaita made that term "popular" at least on the internet, all the commercial "zen" products like "zen soap" might turn into "awareness soap" soon. :D

Last years I hardly hear anyone locally talk about Zen or Buddhism here, which is nice because I had to "correct" primitive views about "karma" and "nirvana" and "Buddha" endlessly. I enjoy the decline actually, well I mean, Buddhism is not for everyone, perhaps when politics and enviromental issues are less popular do we go into the Zen hype again.

And "Zen" sucks at PR too, though they don't care much about popularity or quantity (I imagine), thankfully.

ps I also noticed that ever since islamicphobia ppl are less interested in any religion, I've heared many local comments on "all religion is hate/BS/war etc) though the hype of islamicphobia is on the decline too here since a few years. In the past there was the assumption that "Buddhism=peace" but a browse on Buddhist fora or seeing how "Buddhists" generally behave online quickly pops that soap bubble ;)
Not sure though, just sharing some random observations locally.
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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by KeithA » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:53 pm

I love the increase in mindfulness interest. Practice is showing up in the most unusual places. Sure, it's not Buddhist practice, which is a completely different thing in most respects. But I am glad people are taking time to see what appears from the stillness.

From a Zen sample of one, we have seen attendance at our Center increase pretty dramatically. We now have a parking problem, which is new one for us!

_/|\_
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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:21 pm

KeithA wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:53 pm
From a Zen sample of one, we have seen attendance at our Center increase pretty dramatically. We now have a parking problem, which is new one for us!
Any guess as to why? What town is this in, perhaps it's sheer population increase?

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:48 pm

These things run in cycles. Mindfulness and meditation was a fad for many people, and might not stick, but for some people it might lead them into Buddhism in search of more substance.

I am writing a short book now trying to make "Shikantaza" approachable to the "mindfulness" folks. It does have the tone "mindfulness is a good start, but when you want to be more serious and hard core .., "

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 am

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:48 pm
These things run in cycles. Mindfulness and meditation was a fad for many people, and might not stick, but for some people it might lead them into Buddhism in search of more substance.
From wikipedia:
Fads can be distinguished from trends in three ways: their reason for rise, their incubation period and life span, and their scope. Fads tend to have a huge surge in popularity, and then disappear.

Trends tend to rise in popularity more slowly. They reflect deep-rooted human desires and needs, while fads are generally driven by the emotional need to purchase. This emotional need can come from the hype that surrounds the product. Trends rise slowly over time, but fads’ popularity spike quickly and they end up dying out just as quickly. Fads might last for just weeks or months.
Perhaps you didn't notice the graphic in the OP. It indicates a mindfulness trend, not a fad, in that it has a slow (around a decade) steady growth.

Regarding substance, I thing the cultural trend is generally towards the secular, and this may explain the apparent decline of interest in Zen and the rise of interest in mindfulness. In other words, in a sense the trend may be driven by the lack of substance found in religion.
I am writing a short book now trying to make "Shikantaza" approachable to the "mindfulness" folks. It does have the tone "mindfulness is a good start, but when you want to be more serious and hard core .., "
Hard core?! Don't be steal'n your bros branding. :lol:

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:40 am

boda wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 pm

I imagine that most of these meditators are not part of a traditional practice with a teacher and all that jazz. I have no justification for this imagining, it's just a guess. This got me thinking about cultural trends and the general declining interest in Buddhism and the rising interest in secular forms of contemplation. So, of course, I checked google trends in order to get to the absolute truth of the matter. :)

Sure enough, mindfulness is on the rise and Zen is on the decline.

Your thoughts?
As I recall the label "Secular Buddhism" started with Zen teachers (Steven Bachelor, Brad Warner). I'd not call mindfulness meditation always secular, many very Buddhist teachers (Thich Nhat Hahn, Bhante Gunaratana, etc.) are offering teachings in mindfulness meditation. So your basic generalizations don't quite follow the simple look-see. I wouldn't say that the many meditators in the Insight community don't have teachers either. The good news is that the sky is not falling.

In general, the term mindfulness is borrowed from an English translation of Anapanasati, which literally translated means "remembering the in- and out-breath" - or "mindful of the breath" - "mindfulness" is over-redundant to begin with. Anapanasati type meditation is taught everywhere, even in Zen. It means just sitting with the breath (samatha). In vipassana, you do the breath work first, then take up the insight portion (based on Satipatanna Sutta) -

Mindfulness is enjoying a bonus round currently, but I'm sure its only a phase.

Keep Calm and Carry On!
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boda
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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:07 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:40 am
boda wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:39 pm

I imagine that most of these meditators are not part of a traditional practice with a teacher and all that jazz. I have no justification for this imagining, it's just a guess. This got me thinking about cultural trends and the general declining interest in Buddhism and the rising interest in secular forms of contemplation. So, of course, I checked google trends in order to get to the absolute truth of the matter. :)

Sure enough, mindfulness is on the rise and Zen is on the decline.

Your thoughts?
As I recall the label "Secular Buddhism" started with Zen teachers (Steven Bachelor, Brad Warner). I'd not call mindfulness meditation always secular, many very Buddhist teachers (Thich Nhat Hahn, Bhante Gunaratana, etc.) are offering teachings in mindfulness meditation. So your basic generalizations don't quite follow the simple look-see. I wouldn't say that the many meditators in the Insight community don't have teachers either. The good news is that the sky is not falling.

In general, the term mindfulness is borrowed from an English translation of Anapanasati, which literally translated means "remembering the in- and out-breath" - or "mindful of the breath" - "mindfulness" is over-redundant to begin with. Anapanasati type meditation is taught everywhere, even in Zen. It means just sitting with the breath (samatha). In vipassana, you do the breath work first, then take up the insight portion (based on Satipatanna Sutta) -

Mindfulness is enjoying a bonus round currently, but I'm sure its only a phase.

Keep Calm and Carry On!
Good points, thanks.

My only disagreement is that mindfulness is a phase. If you look at the graphic in the OP it shows slow steady growth that covers about a decade. Also, there are new developments in neuroscience that may spur further advances and interest.

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:14 am

boda wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 am

Regarding substance, I thing the cultural trend is generally towards the secular, and this may explain the apparent decline of interest in Zen and the rise of interest in mindfulness. In other words, in a sense the trend may be driven by the lack of substance found in religion.
Actually, my book is pretty "secular." Buddha lessons without mention of "Buddha," Shikantaza/Practice-Enlightenment etc. with not a mention of Dogen. No robes, no funny hats, but maintaining the Four Noble Truths, Emptiness and all the rest. Bringing it out of the monastery, and into the family room and workplace.

So far, I seem able to thread that needle.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:51 am

jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:14 am
boda wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 am

Regarding substance, I thing the cultural trend is generally towards the secular, and this may explain the apparent decline of interest in Zen and the rise of interest in mindfulness. In other words, in a sense the trend may be driven by the lack of substance found in religion.
Actually, my book is pretty "secular." Buddha lessons without mention of "Buddha," Shikantaza/Practice-Enlightenment etc. with not a mention of Dogen. No robes, no funny hats, but maintaining the Four Noble Truths, Emptiness and all the rest. Bringing it out of the monastery, and into the family room and workplace.

So far, I seem able to thread that needle.

Gassho, J
Probably hundreds of teachers have beet you to this. What you describe sounds quite common in the mindfulness realm.

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 am

boda wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:51 am
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:14 am
boda wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 am

Regarding substance, I thing the cultural trend is generally towards the secular, and this may explain the apparent decline of interest in Zen and the rise of interest in mindfulness. In other words, in a sense the trend may be driven by the lack of substance found in religion.
Actually, my book is pretty "secular." Buddha lessons without mention of "Buddha," Shikantaza/Practice-Enlightenment etc. with not a mention of Dogen. No robes, no funny hats, but maintaining the Four Noble Truths, Emptiness and all the rest. Bringing it out of the monastery, and into the family room and workplace.

So far, I seem able to thread that needle.

Gassho, J
Probably hundreds of teachers have beet you to this. What you describe sounds quite common in the mindfulness realm.
It is. But, in this "way beyond words and letters," there is always room for one more book.

Anyway, the book is my special flavor of "Just Sitting/Shikantaza" and all the rest that you have come to know and love from hearing me ad nauseum aound here.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by egon » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:51 am

jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 am

Anyway, the book is my special flavor of "Just Sitting/Shikantaza" and all the rest that you have come to know and love from hearing me ad nauseum aound here.

Gassho, J
If I hadn't found "Why Buddhism is True" by Robert Wright and the correlations between the dharma and psychology/neuroscience that it asserts, I'd still be throwing the baby out with the hathwater. However novel your book may or may not be, IMO that doesn't give to or take from its potential. I'll certainly read it.

If people are causing less harm to themselves and other living things as a result of practicing a watered down version of the dharma, I don't see how anyone could justify criticizing the practice.

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:26 pm

egon wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:51 am
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 am

Anyway, the book is my special flavor of "Just Sitting/Shikantaza" and all the rest that you have come to know and love from hearing me ad nauseum aound here.

Gassho, J
If people are causing less harm to themselves and other living things as a result of practicing a watered down version of the dharma, I don't see how anyone could justify criticizing the practice.
I am trying not to water anything down, just package it is a way that modern, western and not-Buddhist people can relate to (As Bodi says, I am far from alone in that).

Of course, in my usual "Jundo, the Buddhist Modernist and Proud of It" way, I am not including many of the elements, possible (emphasis on "possible" for those who believe them) myths and traditional beliefs that may not (emphasis on "may not") be necessarily true despite traditional beliefs. It is not watered down, but it is filtered of certain possible "extras." I like to think that, just perhaps, it makes the medicine even stronger.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by KeithA » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:39 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:21 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:53 pm
From a Zen sample of one, we have seen attendance at our Center increase pretty dramatically. We now have a parking problem, which is new one for us!
Any guess as to why? What town is this in, perhaps it's sheer population increase?
It's been just paying attention to communicating better, etc. Nothing special, really. Some people have speculated that the political upheaval in the US has increased traffic for some reason, but I don't really buy that.

_/|\_
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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:45 pm

KeithA wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:39 pm
boda wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:21 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:53 pm
From a Zen sample of one, we have seen attendance at our Center increase pretty dramatically. We now have a parking problem, which is new one for us!
Any guess as to why? What town is this in, perhaps it's sheer population increase?
Some people have speculated that the political upheaval in the US has increased traffic for some reason, but I don't really buy that.
They say that spiritual life begins with the introduction of Trump... uh, I mean pain, the introduction of pain. :D

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:57 pm

egon wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:51 am
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 am

Anyway, the book is my special flavor of "Just Sitting/Shikantaza" and all the rest that you have come to know and love from hearing me ad nauseum aound here.

Gassho, J
If I hadn't found "Why Buddhism is True" by Robert Wright and the correlations between the dharma and psychology/neuroscience that it asserts, I'd still be throwing the baby out with the hathwater. However novel your book may or may not be, IMO that doesn't give to or take from its potential. I'll certainly read it.

If people are causing less harm to themselves and other living things as a result of practicing a watered down version of the dharma, I don't see how anyone could justify criticizing the practice.
I think the trend shows a decrease in forms of contemplation religiously framed and an increase of secular forms. This suggests that the religious forms are found to be thin tea, rather than the other way around. Meaningless because they don't align with enlightenment (Western) values, essentially.

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:01 pm

MSBR was the first "Mindfulness" based program, and it's mostly a medical intervention. Becoming an MBSR teacher has had a pre-requisite of medical degree or training until just recently, when education degrees were added. It's a very recent thing that the general population can enroll in MSBR teacher training without these academic backgrounds.

Teachers like TNH and Bhante G have been offering Mindfulness Meditation since it began, since its mostly samatha/vipassana based on Anapanasati and Satipatanna Suttas, or Mahayana equivalents ***. Its been going on forever in Theraveda schools, this is just a repackage and modernization. But not really secularization. And again, to go into this teaching there is a lot of retreats, vows, and vetting.

And Insight Meditation, hmm, they are all tattooed and branded in Burma, mostly by U Pandita Sayadaw

I suspect that most of these numbers of meditators aren't applying very much vipassana or Satipatana Sutta either. They might not even be schooled in the Three Characteristics. They might not even know there are 5 Precepts. They could simply be a large number of meditators simply using the breathing in and out for its calming effect.

Globally, Mahyana (if you include TB and Pure Land) has numerical advantage, and the numbers of mindfulness meditators in the west won't change that too much.

Some Tibetan and Zen teachers are tapping into the mindfulness frenzy too. So, its not merely a Theraveda thing.

****
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

In the second century, the Buddhist monk An Shigao came from Northwest India to China and became one of the first translators of Buddhist scriptures into Chinese. He translated a version of the Ānāpānasmṛti Sūtra between 148 and 170 CE. This version is a significantly longer text than what appears in the Ekottara Āgama, and is entitled, "The Great Ānāpānasmṛti Sūtra" (Ch. 大安般守意經) (Taishō Tripiṭaka 602).

At a later date, Buddhacinga, more commonly known as Fotudeng (佛圖澄) (231-349 CE), came from Central Asia to China in 310 and propagated Buddhism widely. He is said to have demonstrated many spiritual powers, and was able to convert the warlords in this region of China over to Buddhism.[19] He is well known for teaching methods of meditation, and especially ānāpānasmṛti. Fotudeng widely taught ānāpānasmṛti through methods of counting breaths, so as to temper to the breathing, simultaneously focusing the mind into a state of peaceful meditative concentration.[20] By teaching meditation methods as well as doctrine, Fotudeng popularized Buddhism quickly. According to Nan Huaijin, "Besides all its theoretical accounts of emptiness and existence, Buddhism also offered methods for genuine realization of spiritual powers and meditative concentration that could be relied upon. This is the reason that Buddhism began to develop so vigorously in China with Fotudeng."[20]

As more monks such as Kumārajīva, Dharmanandi, Gautama Saṃghadeva, and Buddhabhadra came to the East, translations of meditation texts did as well, which often taught various methods of ānāpānasmṛti that were being used in India. These became integrated in various Buddhist traditions, as well as into non-Buddhist traditions such as Daoism.

In the sixth century, the Tiantai school was formed, teaching the One Vehicle (Skt. Ekayāna), the vehicle of attaining Buddhahood, as the main principle, and three forms of śamatha-vipaśyanā correlated with the meditative perspectives of emptiness, provisional existence, and the mean, as the method of cultivating realization.[21] The Tiantai school places emphasis on ānāpānasmṛti in accordance with the principles of śamatha and vipaśyanā. In China, the Tiantai understanding of meditation has had the reputation of being the most systematic and comprehensive of all.[22] The founder of the Tiantai school, Zhiyi, wrote many commentaries and treatises on meditation. Of these texts, Zhiyi's Concise Śamatha-vipaśyanā (小止観 Xiǎo Zhǐguān), his Mahāśamatha Vipaśyanā (摩訶止観 Móhē Zhǐguān), and his Six Subtle Dharma Gates (六妙法門 Liù Miào Fǎmén) are the most widely read in China.[22] Zhiyi classifies breathing into four main categories: panting (喘 "chuǎn"), unhurried breathing (風 "fēng"), deep and quiet breathing (氣 "qì"), and stillness or rest (息 "xi"). Zhiyi holds that the first three kinds of breathing are incorrect, while the fourth is correct, and that the breathing should reach stillness and rest.[23] Venerable Hsuan Hua, who taught Chan and Pure Land Buddhism, also taught that the external breathing reaches a state of stillness in correct meditation:

A practitioner with sufficient skill does not breathe externally. That external breathing has stopped, but the internal breathing functions. With internal breathing there is no exhalation through the nose or mouth, but all pores on the body are breathing. A person who is breathing internally appears to be dead, but actually he has not died. He does not breathe externally, but the internal breathing has come alive.[24]

****In the Indo-Tibetan tradition

In the Tibetan Buddhist lineage, ānāpānasmṛti is done to calm the mind in order to prepare one for various other practices.

Two of the most important Mahāyāna philosophers, Asaṅga and Vasubandhu, in the Śrāvakabhūmi chapter of the Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra and the Abhidharma-kośa, respectively, make it clear that they consider ānāpānasmṛti a profound practice leading to vipaśyanā (in accordance with the teachings of the Buddha in the Sutra pitika).[25] However, as scholar Leah Zahler has demonstrated, "the practice traditions related to Vasubandhu's or Asaṅga's presentations of breath meditation were probably not transmitted to Tibet."[26] Asaṅga correlates the sixteen stages of ānāpānasmṛti with the four smṛtyupasthānas in the same way that the Ānāpānasmṛti Sutra does, but because he does not make this explicit the point was lost on later Tibetan commentators.[27]
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:25 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:26 pm
egon wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:51 am
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:17 am

Anyway, the book is my special flavor of "Just Sitting/Shikantaza" and all the rest that you have come to know and love from hearing me ad nauseum aound here.

Gassho, J
If people are causing less harm to themselves and other living things as a result of practicing a watered down version of the dharma, I don't see how anyone could justify criticizing the practice.
I am trying not to water anything down, just package it is a way that modern, western and not-Buddhist people can relate to (As Bodi says, I am far from alone in that).

Of course, in my usual "Jundo, the Buddhist Modernist and Proud of It" way, I am not including many of the elements, possible (emphasis on "possible" for those who believe them) myths and traditional beliefs that may not (emphasis on "may not") be necessarily true despite traditional beliefs. It is not watered down, but it is filtered of certain possible "extras." I like to think that, just perhaps, it makes the medicine even stronger.

Gassho, J
I believe Why Buddhism is True is compelling because it offers a meaningful (being inline with enlightenment values) framework. The evolutionary psychology and neuroscience may be theoretical to a large degree at this point but the science is advancing rather rapidly.

Do you explore things like evolutionary psychology and neuroscience in your book? You mentioned theoretical physics in another topic. That sounds rather dubious in terms of meaning, to my ear.

The thing is you're not actually very 'modern' or 'liberal'. You're traditional in every way that counts. For instance, how do you use theoretical physics in your book? Is it a pseudo mystical explanation, that only that Master has access to, which merely substitutes the mythical? Perhaps your application of it is more practical, I don't know. Maybe you can wet our appetite by telling us how you include it, if you do include it.

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by fuki » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm

boda wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:25 pm
The thing is you're not actually very 'modern' or 'liberal'. You're traditional in every way that counts.
When Jundo says he's "modern and liberal" he means that in relation to what in his experience is/was considered traditional (myths and believes) so he is liberal. To your mind he is not liberal in relation to what you consider/perceive to be traditional or modern. So you're both "right" in your own perception. Nevertheless for communication sakes when we respond to someone else's view it's functional to acknowledge that something "is" or "is not" to your own perception instead of speaking as "you're not" as if we could determine an objective reality where things are "so" or "not so". No things only appear to be liberal or modern, but never are. :P

I understand Jundo when he says he's modern and liberal, that's all, nothing to my mind to disagree or agree with.
;)

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Re: The Decline of Zen and Rise of Mindfulness

Post by boda » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:05 pm

You speak as though identifying something or someone as traditional were pejorative, Fuki. It isn't.

And some consider it redundant to claim all claims. The claims I make are, of course, my claims. I began an argument to support the claim.

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