Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

Moderator: Spiritual Do-gooder

Pablo
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:28 am
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:05 pm
Pablo, when you say 'it's not Zen', it rings of Spiritual Bypassing for me, are you familiar with the term? One of the teachers I've had the privilege to know and study under, having completed numerous long-term arduous retreats under some of the best teachers of our time, after coming back and living a life far away from the Dharma Centre, the Monastery and fellow practitioners, a secular environment that places no value on the Dharma, a life of bills and dodgy builders, of whacky demanding students and having to making ends meet, found that the amazing insights about the nature of mind did not always equip one 100% with dealing with this ordinary hurly-burly. And those doubts and loneliness can still surge up and threaten to overwhelm one. You may be past all that, or you may be just riding the wave of an ecstatic experience, supported by a myriad things you take for granted. I don't know. But beware.
Thanks for the advice, Dan. No, I wasn't familiar with the term, although I'm familiar with the idea. A close friend of mine put it this way: "What do I care about your kensho if you're still an asshole?" :lol: Yes, an important danger. For me, it means that the path isn't complete, no matter how many certificates one has, or kenshos, or solitary retreats in the middle of the mountain.

And no, I'm in no way past that at all :P That's why I still sound like a douchebag sometimes :lol: So beware indeed I do. Thanks again. :namaste:
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:53 am
Suppose I suffer from fatigue and mood swings. I've worked hard to overcome them, therapy, yoga, Buddhist practice, diet, etc, all to very limited results (as far as fatigue and mood swings go). A routine brain scan after many years of going on like this shows a small benign tumour which after a course of drug therapy is shrunk. My fatigue and mood swings are gone. I have much more energy and a more positive attitude to my Buddhist practice and make serious progress.

I wager that few would object to the course of action in this scenario. And yet what is fundamentally different to the psychedelic one? One may well suffer from a psychological obstruction, something that will in the future be observable in the subtleties of brain architecture, perhaps, that psychedelics are able to help loosen. Is that not conceivable?
Maybe you're right (and, by extension, Anders in his previous post), I don't know. I still think most of the Lion's Roar article is bull, though :P
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

Caodemarte
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Caodemarte » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:48 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:53 am
....Firstly, psychedelics (thank you for the correction), are not drugs in the sense that heroin or cocaine, are drugs - they don't work to bring pleasure or entertainment....Many practitioners believe, rightly or wrongly, that the defilements run deeper in our times, the obstacles are more stubborn....Suppose I suffer from fatigue and mood swings. I've worked hard to overcome them, therapy, yoga, Buddhist practice, diet, etc, all to very limited results (as far as fatigue and mood swings go). A routine brain scan after many years of going on like this shows a small benign tumour which after a course of drug therapy is shrunk. My fatigue and mood swings are gone. I have much more energy and a more positive attitude to my Buddhist practice and make serious progress.....
I would have to disagree that psychedelics are not used for entertainment, including spritual entertainment. They are used for a variety of acutal purposes, regardless of the conscious intention.

I am sure that ”Many practitioners believe, rightly or wrongly, that the defilements run deeper in our times, the obstacles are more stubborn.” because they always have so believed throughout history. As Sheng-yen points out somewhere it is just another form of vanity to imagine that you are especially afflicted or gifted.

If you fix your broken leg you will find you have more energy and a more positive attitude to your religious practice. Does this mean that surgery should be sacralized or called Buddhist practice? Maybe as much as everything else is or is not. It certainly should not be prescribed or performed by oneself on one’s own body or by other amateurs. In any case, neither your physical or mental gifts or problems will move you closer or farther from the Dharma as the ancients keep telling us. This does not mean that one should not heal pain or use gifts.

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:06 pm

Hi, Dan, I thank you for your very well-considered reply.

As you see, I present -- and maintain! -- a rather hard-line against drug-use, in the same sentence with what we call Buddhist practice.

If they are separate, well, that may be another matter. For example, I think my coffee-drinking is separate from my Buddhist practice. I always desist in it at least 10 days before every Ch'an retreat or Zen sesshin. I go there clean. Now, I have to give some thought to whether my green-tea (macha) drinking is "separate from my Buddhist practice". ;)

I'm a Yoga teacher since 1980, and Buddhist-Yoga teacher (of the exercises and self-massage of my teacher Sheng Yen) for as long. I don't see drugs of any kind helping my students. And they admit that they don't either.

For those enamored of so-called psychedelic drugs, I suggest that those interested investigate what happens to the brain and nervous system under the influence of these substances. I don't think it's something that uncovers our original Human inheritance, and our Original Face. That said, such use might be akin to a roller-coaster ride, or sitting through a thrilling or aesthetic or horrible movie. But most roller-coaster rides or movies don't last 12-18 hours, so I dunno. Analogies may leave us flat.

As far as what constitutes "Yoga", I'd say it's worth investigating!, those interested.

--Joe
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:53 am
Joe, the phrase 'drug use' is off the mark, I feel. Firstly, psychedelics (thank you for the correction), are not drugs in the sense that heroin or cocaine, are drugs - they don't work to bring pleasure or entertainment. Secondly, we need to be careful about what we term 'yoga'.
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

User avatar
clyde
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by clyde » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:47 pm

I’m handling personal matters and don’t have much time, but I thought this response from James Ford was worthy:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind ... ences.html

Summary: “The real spiritual path is a life long journey.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 am

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by KeithA » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:01 pm

Hi all,

I finally got a chance to read Brad Warner's post about the Lion's Roar article. A couple things jumped out at me:

1. There is no such thing a monolithic "American Zen" or "Western Zen". It's loathsome and tiresome to generalize that way.

2. Warner is probably being a little intentionally over the top to makes his point.

3. I agree with his overall point 1000 percent.

Psychedelics have no place in Buddhism. They may have uses for other types of meditation.

The 5th Precept is clear and basically draws a close to the argument. I have dropped acid and used psychedelic mushrooms in the past (before I knew anything about Buddhism). Not a ton, be enough. I am not sure it's possible to less connected with reality than when tripping. That's kind of the point, after all!

It's really not rocket science and I don't think there much in the way nuance. :112:

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 am

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by KeithA » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:26 pm

It occurred to me I didn't read the original article from Lion's Roar.

Yeah, no. :shock:

I see why Warner reacted the way he did. But, I still disagree that it spells the end for "American Zen", whatever that is. He was being a bit dramatic there.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Anders » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:31 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:06 pm
If they are separate, well, that may be another matter. For example, I think my coffee-drinking is separate from my Buddhist practice. I always desist in it at least 10 days before every Ch'an retreat or Zen sesshin. I go there clean. Now, I have to give some thought to whether my green-tea (macha) drinking is "separate from my Buddhist practice". ;)
I am sort of coming from the opposite angle. I don't think it really makes sense to have "buddhist practise" on one side and "all the other stuff in the life of this bodymind" on the other.

I liked Linda's description of Peyote as a healing substance. That's basically how I see its psychedelics' potential (of course, it has potential for partytimes and all that, but I will assume nobler intent here).

And to me, it doesn't make sense to assert that healing the wounds of the bodymind has nothing to do with Zen practise. Sure, it may not be the aim of it but it sure as hell is part of the same life - And I will assert that some wounds need to be healed in the context of spiritual maturation, whether it is pre- or post-kensho, and whether it was psychedelics, samadhi, therapy or a good talk with a friend that did it, is to me besides the point. My impression is that part of the resistance to this is the notion that "but your method wasn't Buddhist", as if life ought to somehow conform to that.

I am not in the camp of "dude, you should totally amp up your practise with shrooms. Samadhi is just way better that way" camp - But having recognised the healing potential of psychedelics, I think there is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the name of orthodoxy or whatever it is. If it is possible to have a meaningful discussion on hiw healing deep wounds and loosening deep-seated obstacles in life can impact one's zen practise, then it is to that extent also possible to discuss how certain kinds of psychedelic usages can impact zen practise.

Though personally, I think 'impact on zen practise' is still somewhat off. The main thing for me is that all of this affects the life of this bodymind in non-trivial ways.
Last edited by Anders on Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Anders » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:40 am

KeithA wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:26 pm
It occurred to me I didn't read the original article from Lion's Roar.

Yeah, no. :shock:

I see why Warner reacted the way he did. But, I still disagree that it spells the end for "American Zen", whatever that is. He was being a bit dramatic there.

_/|\_
went and read it too as well now. Yea, I wouldn't argue for any of what the article opens with either - communities building it into the actual path of practise as a regular thing. :shock:

I really liked Ajahn Succito's input in the article though. Also know from first hand experience he is an incredibly profound practitioner. Worth checking out if you are ever in Sussex.
Last edited by Anders on Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Anders » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:54 am

Pablo wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:41 am
But this has nothing to do with Zen. As soon as my mind has the thought "Oh, I'm stuck, maybe I should try psychedelics to unlock this blockage", I'm turning my attention outside instead of inward. I repeat: what is lacking, right here, right now? No need for drugs, special practices, koans, initiations, enlightened teachers to show us the way. Who is stuck? Who wants to get out of it? As Linji would say: "Look! Look!"

I think this is a bit one-sided though. Obviously, if a person jumps straight from "I've been stuck for weeks/months on this part" to "I'll just drop some mushrooms to unlock it", then we're probably in the territory of absconding our own responsibility for our own path.

But if "what is lacking, right here, right now?" was effective for everyone always, that'd be the only teaching we had. Instead, we have 80k.
My point in regard to psychedelics in this regard is really part of a much wider context - I think that for a lot of longtime practitioners who find themselves stuck in practice over many years, the resolution to their obstacles is as often as not found in pathways that formal Buddhist practise have simply proven incapable of unlocking.
What can unlock these shadowed realms of bypassing have no one-size-fits-all. It can be the death of a loved one, cancer, therapy, new lifestyle, or near-death-experience, or trying a totally different practise of cultivation. I mention psychedelics in this context because it is, alongside therapy, one of the few things that can be deliberately facilitate shifts of perspective into these shadowed parts without requiring dramatic overhauls of life or traumatic experiences to do its work.

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Anders » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:08 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:12 pm
Our friend and Ch'an teacher Guo Gu has opined and asserted here, when it comes to Awakening, that "The key is samadhi".
I agree, and this is where I also think those who would integrate psychedelics into a regular practise may be missing an important point.

It's samadhi that integrates insight into our habits and behaviours and works itself into our emotional and perceptual bodies to effect lasting change.

Psychedelics are, in a way, more akin to temporary insight experiences. And we all know what Zen Buddhism says about those. "nice, use what you can of them, then move on. It won't last" - you need to have a practise that isn't affected by what happens when it goes away.

Pablo
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:28 am
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:01 am

Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:40 am
I really liked Ajahn Succito's input in the article though. Also know from first hand experience he is an incredibly profound practitioner. Worth checking out if you are ever in Sussex.
Is he still in Chithurst? I visited them in 2009, cool place. Didn't spend much time with Succito, though. Or with anyone, for that matter :P

I remember him giving a Dharma talk, saying that going about our normal lives was OK. But that we could do better. That struck a chord, and still does.
Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:54 am
But if "what is lacking, right here, right now?" was effective for everyone always, that'd be the only teaching we had. Instead, we have 80k.
My point in regard to psychedelics in this regard is really part of a much wider context - I think that for a lot of longtime practitioners who find themselves stuck in practice over many years, the resolution to their obstacles is as often as not found in pathways that formal Buddhist practise have simply proven incapable of unlocking.
What can unlock these shadowed realms of bypassing have no one-size-fits-all. It can be the death of a loved one, cancer, therapy, new lifestyle, or near-death-experience, or trying a totally different practise of cultivation. I mention psychedelics in this context because it is, alongside therapy, one of the few things that can be deliberately facilitate shifts of perspective into these shadowed parts without requiring dramatic overhauls of life or traumatic experiences to do its work.

I see your point. But I don't know if we mean the same thing when we talk about obstructions. What do you mean by that?

When someone says "I've been stuck these last 20 years!", what do they mean? Yes, if being stuck means being depressed for 20 years, then therapy (and perhaps psychedelics if they are found to work) seems like a good option. But if it means "my samadhi is not deep enough", "I haven't had any kensho" or "I just don't seem to be going anywhere", I would look deeply into where these feelings come from. I would say that using psychedelics in that case is just another form of escapism. Which we do all the time. And I really believe that Zen is about not escaping anymore.
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Anders » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:12 am

Pablo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:01 am
But if it means "my samadhi is not deep enough", "I haven't had any kensho" or "I just don't seem to be going anywhere", I would look deeply into where these feelings come from. I would say that using psychedelics in that case is just another form of escapism. Which we do all the time. And I really believe that Zen is about not escaping anymore.
If you've been doing the same practice for 20 years without real results, I really don't think looking at alternative options qualify as escapism. Saying "just keep doing the same, but more and better. See that nothing is lacking! " to such a person strikes me as dogmatic to the point of lacking empathy. Obviously something is lacking for that person

Pablo
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:28 am
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:39 am

Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:12 am
If you've been doing the same practice for 20 years without real results, I really don't think looking at alternative options qualify as escapism. Saying "just keep doing the same, but more and better. See that nothing is lacking! " to such a person strikes me as dogmatic to the point of lacking empathy. Obviously something is lacking for that person
In my experience, every single person I've known that came to me or to my teacher (and that includes myself) saying "I'm stuck. I've been stuck for [whatever length of time]" suffered from a lack of trust in their practice. All of them. As soon as they (we) threw ourselves fully to the practice, there was no obstruction anymore.

I understand your point, and appreciate your patience in explaining it to me over and over again. But I haven't met any issue (other than mental health problems) which merited any other answer than "have faith, have trust".
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:01 am

Pablo wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:39 am
In my experience, every single person I've known that came to me or to my teacher (and that includes myself) saying "I'm stuck. I've been stuck for [whatever length of time]" suffered from a lack of trust in their practice. All of them. As soon as they (we) threw ourselves fully to the practice, there was no obstruction anymore.
I've noticed that those who do not have an unshaken faith in their ("buddha-nature"-"Self" "Absolute" "God" etc) tend to be result orientated, expecting results from practise in relation to their "personal relative selfs" like "becoming enlightened" or "happier" or that one day these (imagined) obstructions will vanish, there was a day when I realized that the notion of having obstructions and that they needed to be cleared was in itself the very impediment. Then again in the relative world there are "obstructions" (or opportunities as I like to call them) depending on the 'individual', whether it's psychedelics or Buddhism/practise, whatever medicine occurs is the right one at that moment depending on the dis-ease, nevertheless to repeat myself, I don't see the need for an "and" as in Buddhism and psychedelics, or Buddhism and this or that, in such a way Buddhism becomes an identity fetish again as if taking a morning shit is somehow a "Buddhist shit" or a "Christian/atheist shit" or whatever identity one superimposes upon empty costumes, when we talk about Buddhist practise, again psychedelics isn't part of it, at least not that I know of, such prescriptions comes from medical people not from Buddhist teachers.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Dan74
Site Admin
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Dan74 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:59 am

An interesting exchange again.

Perhaps there can be difficulties/obstructions to throwing oneself fully into one's practice?

Fuki, while as Bob used to say 'practice is not a self improvement project', some things, quite a few things for most of us, require a good look-see. (Is that also from Bob?).

I can imagine a practitioner gloriously walking the beautiful Buddhist red carpet, while all sorts of stuff remains buried under. Stumbling continuously on the bumps and whitewashing it with a generous serving of emptiness. We are human, we cary wounds, empty as they are, they smart. And they need some attention. Not too much, not too little.

Pablo
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:28 am
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:36 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:59 am
Perhaps there can be difficulties/obstructions to throwing oneself fully into one's practice?

I don't doubt it. That's why I say there should be investigation. My teacher Jeff asks us "What hinders you?", what is the obstacle?

A naive reading would be to say "There is no obstruction whatsoever, everything is empty, bla bla bla". And if that's the case, good for you. But vexations, as Guo Gu likes to call them, appear all the time. So "What is the obstacle?" is a question to look deeply at what ails us, right now. Look at our habits, every moment. What can we do to change them? Are we taking good care of our bodies? If not, what can we do about it? Are we living a moral life? If not, where do we fail? And why? And so on.

And yes, if there are emotional or mental blocks, maybe therapy is needed. And maybe, psychedelics will help with that.
Dan74 wrote: I can imagine a practitioner gloriously walking the beautiful Buddhist red carpet, while all sorts of stuff remains buried under. Stumbling continuously on the bumps and whitewashing it with a generous serving of emptiness. We are human, we carey wounds, empty as they are, they smart. And they need some attention. Not too much, not too little.
Yup, that's a real danger. That's why practice must encompass EVERYTHING we do. Nobody said it was easy :D

I've found Meido's book to be very inspiring when it comes to invite us to throw ourselves completely to the practice.
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

User avatar
lindama
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by lindama » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:50 pm

Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:31 am
I am sort of coming from the opposite angle. I don't think it really makes sense to have "buddhist practise" on one side and "all the other stuff in the life of this bodymind" on the other.

And to me, it doesn't make sense to assert that healing the wounds of the bodymind has nothing to do with Zen practise. Sure, it may not be the aim of it but it sure as hell is part of the same life - And I will assert that some wounds need to be healed in the context of spiritual maturation, whether it is pre- or post-kensho, and whether it was psychedelics, samadhi, therapy or a good talk with a friend that did it, is to me besides the point. My impression is that part of the resistance to this is the notion that "but your method wasn't Buddhist", as if life ought to somehow conform to that.
Wise words Anders. They will serve you well as a therapist. Every response in this thread contributes to the one. My teacher, who is a Hakuin geek, said that there is nothing that is not zen.... roaring fire there! He was fond of pointing out meditation is not a self-improvement project yet he also spoke of inquiry. Something for everyone and oceans of paradox.

A few days ago, I saw a quote from Hakuin to the effect that seeking is the greatest disease. no news there.... and all the discussion about spiritual bypass. There are many, many examples of surrender beyond disease. I was looking for it today and learned that "In his young age, Hakuin suffered a nervous breakdown and was sick for almost two years. It was then that he sought advice from a Taoist cave dwelling hermit named Hakuyu, who prescribed a visualisation and breathing practice which eventually relieved his symptoms."

Great trust.... every snow flake falls in the right place. Reflecting back, I wasn't looking for Peyote tho I was on a healing exploration. I wound up in Utah as part of a cooking journey/job... and then with friends in a forest gathering of healers, several traditions. Back then, I was walking out of sweat lodges barefoot in the snow to dunk in an icy stream. It all made so much sense, lol.... and still does. At that time, I already had an MA in Transpersonal Psychology yet my off campus experiences were more meaningful than what was happening on campus.

Recently saw an interview with Sufi, Pir Zia Inayat-Khan, he speaks of Sufism recognizing the "one wisdom" as it includes all traditions. It's always been a key for me to feel comfortable in other traditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRGP6OB ... e=youtu.be

Hakuin - all beings by nature.jpg
Hakuin - all beings by nature.jpg (43.8 KiB) Viewed 203 times
ps/edit: just occurred to me that Lion's Roar, or I should say this article, strikes me as similar to MSM, mainstream media, FOX, MSNBC, etc take your pick.... it brings in the $$. :lol: there is nothing that is not zen

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:19 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:59 am
Perhaps there can be difficulties/obstructions to throwing oneself fully into one's practice?
Sure when there's an into an out of there most certainly are impediments for such differentating is conceptual, no bird wakes up in the morning thinking "lets have a day of, or lets work today" they just follow their nature. it's not a personal activity it's nature's natural work, same applies to humans and practise, is one's practise/life a personal activity or just work for the all by the all? There are people who risking their lifes in war zones just because it's their nature to help the suffering, does it matter whether they are practising "Buddhists" or not? Is what they do Buddhist - is it not Buddhist? What a strange inquiry!
We are human, we cary wounds.... And they need some attention.
Yes ofcourse, I'm quit aware that people need "healing" actually they need it so much that's it's often better to fully concentrate on that without mixing Buddhism in the story (especially study of scipture/philosophy) which can result in spiritual bypassing, ofcourse Buddhism can be complementary. But I see Buddhism as a set of tools in a toolbox, use it wisely, the same applies to tools in the psychological/medical field, use them wisely too, all I'm saying is that psychedelics aren't part of the "Buddhism-toolbox"
Healing, compassion, love etc aren't Buddhist tools, those are aspects of life and natural qualities of all sentient beings, to me "Buddhism" are expedient means/practises, I read articles from Buddhist teachers daily about compassion in daily life, nothing in me associates compassion with Buddhism, same applies to psychedelics, others can make the association ofcourse but it's superfluous for me.
But as always it depends on the individual all I'm saying I don't see the link between psychedelics and Buddhism, if it is ok, I just never seen it.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Anders
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Anders » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:01 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:19 pm
Nothing in me associates compassion with Buddhism,
Skipped the whole Mahayana bit?

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:56 pm

Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:01 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:19 pm
Nothing in me associates compassion with Buddhism,
Skipped the whole Mahayana bit?
I think you know what I mean, besides the earliest known mahayana scriptures are from the 2nd century, can you put an age on compassion?
I don't mean the word compassion btw.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Post Reply