Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

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Caodemarte
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:38 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:56 pm
...
I think you know what I mean....
It is certainly not clear. Could you clarify?

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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:15 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:38 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:56 pm
...
I think you know what I mean....
It is certainly not clear. Could you clarify?
Compassion=compassion it doesn't exist as a concept for me other then for communication purposes, so with what in particular should I associate it with? In the same way I used the morning defecation example, pooping is just pooping, I don't sit on the toilet having a concept about pooping, let alone if it's Buddhist or not, pooping occurs naturally, so I don't associate it with Buddhism or anything in particular. Another example I read Joan Halifax stories about her daily life and work to relieve global suffering for sentient beings, I read about a living being helping living beings, nowhere while reading the article do I have an association with her as a Buddhist or Buddhism, it just doesn't occur, in fact even the slightest thought would be an intrusion (to "the intimacy")
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Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:20 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:19 pm
Healing, compassion, love etc aren't Buddhist tools, those are aspects of life and natural qualities of all sentient beings, to me "Buddhism" are expedient means/practises, I read articles from Buddhist teachers daily about compassion in daily life, nothing in me associates compassion with Buddhism, same applies to psychedelics, others can make the association ofcourse but it's superfluous for me.
But as always it depends on the individual all I'm saying I don't see the link between psychedelics and Buddhism, if it is ok, I just never seen it.
Good points I think, Marcel, I'd say.

However, something is a bit garbled in the flow of your sentences, somewhat hard to parse, and your meaning is not crystal-clear overall. But the gist seems to be that although others see a connection with "compassion" in Buddhism, to you the connection is not important ("superfluous"?).

But directly on the matter of "compassion" and Buddhism -- and this is surely off-topic, but just in passing we can briefly touch on it again and let it go -- it's good to see that you have at least read about the connection. I'd also say that the connection is REAL, and is one of the most important phenomena and original Human assets recognized in all Buddhist schools, even in archaic Buddhism (in pre-Mahayana and pre-Vajrayana Buddhism).

The thing I want to add about the connection is that there may be distinct reasons for WHY the connection is to you superfluous. One reason, I'd opine, is that "Buddhism" is recognizing and talking about TRUE Compassion, not "dictionary-compassion".

True Compassion arises simultaneously when True Wisdom arises (in all circumstances and events of daily-life).

True Wisdom arises in the awakened person. Not otherwise.

If there has been no awakening, then there is no True Wisdom, and no True Compassion.

The three ingredients must be there. Then, and only then, will True Compassion be something other than "superfluous" for a person (a practitioner).

Without those three ingredients, then -- naturally! -- compassion seems a non-issue, non-real, and perhaps even "superfluous".

All this points out that the practitioner has not practiced, or has not yet practiced.

Now, in a practitioner who has practiced, and who has awakened at least once, True Wisdom and True Compassion indeed arise, spontaneously and simultaneously, in closest, seamless accord with beings and events just as they are and just as they arise.

Yet, the practitioner need make no effort in these responses (in Wisdom arising; and in Compassion arising). But the spontaneous arising(s) are nonetheless noted, as the practitioner is not inert, and is indeed sentient. ;) Thus, to the awakened practitioner, naturally, True Compassion is not "superfluous", and in its operation is instead noted as one of the marvelous functions and operations of this miraculous and wondrous Mind.

As I see it as a practitioner.

best,

--Joe

p.s. You may be saying that it seems to you that True Compassion (you say "compassion") is not the exclusive domain of "Buddhism".
It may be so, but I have not seen it elsewhere. Since it takes a particular opening to uncover True Wisdom and True Compassion, it's unlikely or impossible that True Compassion and True Wisdom could be associated with random events, not focused by intensive mind- and body-practice of a specifically correct kind, guided by a Truly Compassionate and Truly Wise teacher. There are "too many" pitfalls, too many rabbit-holes to fall into ("Psychedelics"-use is likely one of them!).
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:44 pm

Anders,
Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:08 am
Psychedelics are, in a way, more akin to temporary insight experiences.
I'd say "makyo": Interesting delusion(s).

With thanks,

--Joe

ps "Not indulging in the Wine of Delusion" is one of our Buddhist Precepts.

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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by lindama » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:33 pm

Joe,
Nice post. I'm not sure what Fuki was saying either.... I heard that compassion is three days older than water, thus Buddhism doesn't own it. Indeed, as you say, true compassion is effortless. I make the distinction that so-called do-gooding has nothing to do with compassion... it's pure ego, however well intended, and often misses it's mark in usefulness. I'd also say that compassion doesn't necessarily wait for awakening, it is a human quality inherent in being, no boundary.
linda

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Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:36 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:20 pm

True Compassion arises simultaneously when True Wisdom arises (in all circumstances and events of daily-life).

True Wisdom arises in the awakened person. Not otherwise.

If there has been no awakening, then there is no True Wisdom, and no True Compassion.
Morning Joe,

Yes that is all crystal clear, it seems to be unclear what I meant with "non-association"

In the same way I don't associate (true) compassion with Buddhism I also don't associate sexual misconduct with Buddhism, I'm sure you've heared about the latest news concerning Shi Xuecheng. I hope it's clear now what I mean with "non-association"

When true compassion/wisdom arises there isn't the slightest thought arising that it's Buddhist, or something other then Buddhist, or anything in particular, the association simply is not there. Prajna is a dharma, meaning it arises depending on conditions and circumstances, no one posses it or owns it, when it Functions the whole idea that through whatever 'vehicle' it moves that it's connected with a particular practise or religion is superfluous and a sign of delusion not awakening. You read about it online but that's mostly the business model or "news" about the particular religion. If you'd jump in a river spontaneously because someone is drowning, there is no association about how such activity is Buddhist, or connection with Buddhism at all.
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:41 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:33 pm
I'm not sure what Fuki was saying either
What is not clear about pooping in the morning having nothing to do with Buddhism? (unless in one's imagination there is a notion of a Buddhist poop)
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by lindama » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:47 pm

that's very clear :lol:

what about compassion? ofc, Buddhism does not own it.

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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:06 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:47 pm
that's very clear :lol:

what about compassion? ofc, Buddhism does not own it.
Same Linda, what I associate with the container known as Buddhism is;
Buddhist practises
Buddhist scriptures
Buddhist concepts
etc
People who call themselfs or think they are Buddhist (which falls under concepts)

Compassion is not a practise to me, nor is pooping. :D
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by lindama » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:24 pm

oh, I see. I don't hold it as a practice either. Mature peeps don't in any tradition. Joe said it was effortless, I said similar. where is the rub.

Compassion has the flavor of Quan Yin reaching for a pillow in the night.
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:27 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:24 pm
oh, I see. I don't hold it as a practice either. Mature peeps don't in any tradition. Joe said it was effortless, I said similar. where is the rub.
Ace, no rub, someone quote my words and stuff resulted, fortunately no psychedelics were taking during the off-topic discussion :)

ps Joe in case you did miss it, here's the news.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/23/asia ... index.html
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by lindama » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:29 pm

good on you, no psychedelics, me neither.... then we must be free of delusion, according to Joe.

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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:36 pm

lindama wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:29 pm
good on you, no psychedelics.... then we must be free of delusion, according to Joe.
Since delusion never had birth in me, how can I say whether I'm bound or free? :111:
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Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:19 am

My Man, Marcel,
fuki wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:36 pm
Since delusion never had birth in me, how can I say whether I'm bound or free? :111:
It's not YOU who says you are bound or free; it can never be YOU. It's your teacher who "says".

When she says you're free, you'll be able to say, "Hey!, I know that. How would you like a wallop with a stick?" :lol: And then you'll offer tea and flowers. Or, you'd better... . She has a swing better than you do.

:namaste:

--Joe

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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:11 pm

For those interested, Brad has posted two new entries in his blog on this topic:

http://hardcorezen.info/getting-high/5953

http://hardcorezen.info/sex-and-drugs-and-buddhism/5962

Reading him, it strikes me that Brad should talk less and practice more. And that applies to me as well. Why do I care so much about other people taking psychedelics? Why do I feel the need to assert my cherished opinions in this forum? What is behind all that? Seems I should devote more effort to investigate that.
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:53 pm

Pablo wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:11 pm
Why do I care so much about other people taking psychedelics? Why do I feel the need to assert my cherished opinions in this forum? What is behind all that? Seems I should devote more effort to investigate that.
Can't speak for you or anyone, but I don't have opinions (let alone "cherished ones), communication happens according to causes and conditions, someone posts something and someone responds that's all. Besides due to communicating with each other it is interesting to see and share different angels of vision on an arising subject, even if there are "opinions" they might chance since they're not fixed, that's the beauty about communicating. I doubt any practisioner here takes this discussion in their heads outside of this thread and sit on the couch thinking "that's my opinion" lol .I don't see how the original poster (Dan) set this up for us being opinionated, besides differences are never in opposition. We talk not due to forming and holding views but to discuss conduct in order to navigate in the objective world. Padmasambhava comes to mind.
“Padmasambhava said: ‘Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.’ Don’t confuse one with the other. When training in the view, you can be as unbiased, as impartial, as vast, immense, and unlimited as the sky. Your behaviour, on the other hand, should be as careful as possible in discriminating what is beneficial or harmful, what is good or evil. One can combine the view and conduct, but don’t mix them or lose one in the other. That is very important.

‘View like the sky’ means that nothing is held onto in any way whatsoever. You are not stuck anywhere at all. In other words, there is no discrimination as to what to accept and what to reject; no line is drawn separating one thing from another. ‘Conduct as fine as barley flour’ means that there is good and evil, and one needs to differentiate between the two. Give up negative deeds; practice the Dharma. In your behaviour, in your conduct, it is necessary to accept and reject.”

~Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
The discussions about psychedelics isn't about views but the dangers of mixing it with Buddhism, there's a difference between sharing angles of visions, opinions and self-narratives. I don't see how your inquiry is on topic here, perhaps as a general discussion it can be a new topic, but thanks for adding your personal situation that you think you should talk less and practise more. I don't see issues with sharing opinions according to what arises, doesn't mean anyone is attached to their 'opinions' I agree in a general sense that opinion vs opinion isn't talking with someone but against someone, if anyone notices that habit, then not sharing an opinion might also result in supression/indifference, for others not talking or sharing opinions might be good medicine, but you can't speak for Brad or anyone else. For instance I joined in a march for animal right in Amsterdam today, chanting with thousands of people all over the world for the right for animals. In your mind you might think it's because of cherished opinions or views or whatever or that I've better stayed home and practise more, which would be a silly statement to me. To me what happens in the world matters, animal rights, psychedelics or whatever it is that one is 'moved' by. :hatsoff:
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Re: Psychodelics [sic] and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by fuki » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:59 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:19 am
My Man, Marcel,

When she says you're free, you'll be able to say, "Hey!, I know that. How would you like a wallop with a stick?" :lol: And then you'll offer tea and flowers. Or, you'd better... . She has a swing better than you do.
Do you think I would share it here?

Anyways the new season is in a few weeks, I enjoy sitting with her and the rest of the group, or should I say AS. That's all, nothing to do with naming, claiming or locating.
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:27 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:53 pm
I don't see how your inquiry is on topic here, perhaps as a general discussion it can be a new topic, but thanks for adding your personal situation that you think you should talk less and practise more. I don't see issues with sharing opinions according to what arises, doesn't mean anyone is attached to their 'opinions' I agree in a general sense that opinion vs opinion isn't talking with someone but against someone, if anyone notices that habit, then not sharing an opinion might also result in supression/indifference, for others not talking or sharing opinions might be good medicine, but you can't speak for Brad or anyone else.
You're right, I shouldn't have said that about Brad, my bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

And yes, perhaps I should start a new topic on this.
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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Dan74 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:23 pm

Pablo wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:11 pm
For those interested, Brad has posted two new entries in his blog on this topic:

http://hardcorezen.info/getting-high/5953

http://hardcorezen.info/sex-and-drugs-and-buddhism/5962

Reading him, it strikes me that Brad should talk less and practice more. And that applies to me as well. Why do I care so much about other people taking psychedelics? Why do I feel the need to assert my cherished opinions in this forum? What is behind all that? Seems I should devote more effort to investigate that.
I don't know about Brad, but I do hope that people share their knowledge, experience and perspective even though they are of course incomplete and flawed - mine sure is! As long as there is that healthy but not paralysing dose of doubt, it's all good, as one of our members likes to say!

I mean some folks come to a forum with curiosity and no experience at all. Others, with a whole lot of wrong ideas. They don't necessarily need an enlightened master in the first instance. Someone with a little experience and good will can be helpful. And those of us who already practice to some extent, I think we can benefit from an exchange of knowledge, sincere support and a different perspective, as well as occasionally for a teacher to give feedback from a place of experience. So don't do too much of a Hamlet and please share freely.


_/|\_

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Re: Psychodelics and Buddhism: Lion Roar article and Brad Warner's response + a few thoughts

Post by Pablo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:00 pm

Dan, thanks for your reply :)

It's clear I didn't express myself well :P What I wanted to say was that I want to use this forum as part of my practice, instead of coming here and blabber as usual. There are a lot of things I can learn from my own reactions and thoughts regarding this forum. How do I react to certain comments? Do I carry these comments in my mind after I leave the forum? And so on.

I will start a new topic expanding on this (I don't know when, busy days), maybe you guys find it interesting.
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