What is “the body”?

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[james]
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What is “the body”?

Post by [james] » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:17 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:59 am


...... For a long time, I used to think that the body was more or less something the mind dragged around to experience the world with and that body meditation practises were basically training wheel methods for people who weren't ready to work with their minds.

Now I think the mind is more like a flowering expression of the body, which is in turn an expression of our true body. And a whole lot of the innate wisdom talked of is accessed naturally through the body freed of obstacles, which is basically always trying to do right by you, so long as the mind doesn't run interference on it. In that sense, it's more like a treasure house and really a locus of practise.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=498

Is there a body without a mind to experience it?
Is there a mind without a body to express it?

And the “true body” .... what? This is the mind talking, right?
What is the body?

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:46 pm

I'd say that the body is that which is possessed of no-mind, which is the true Mind.

The "mind" that's not the true mind is illusion, and is not mind -- nor "a" mind at all -- but is instead a sort of disease-state of ...the body (as is also any holding of a putative "self").

--Joe

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by [james] » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:49 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:46 pm
I'd say that the body is that which is possessed of no-mind, which is the true Mind.
Anders brings up the true body, with certain attributes and characteristics. You further specify that this body is possessed of true Mind. In asking my question I was having in mind Hakuin’s Song of Zazen: “This very body is the body of Buddha”. Was Hakuin referring only to his own very body or does his statement apply to each and e.very body as is without special quality or qualification? I think the latter and wonder what use or benefit there may be in putting this very body in opposition to some so-called “true body”.
The "mind" that's not the true mind is illusion, and is not mind -- nor "a" mind at all -- but is instead a sort of disease-state of ...the body (as is also any holding of a putative "self").
Can any body be in other than a disease or dis-ease state? A body is incapable of illusion. However one might choose to describe it, it can only be truthful. So why create and aspire to a contrivance, the “true body” when in fact that is the only kind of body there is.

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by fuki » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:58 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:17 pm
What is the body?
The body-mind is an functional apparatus, any concepts about "true body" or "true mind" is therefore a result of that birth chemical mistakenly identified with, all positive terms when it comes to "true body" or "true nature" are misleading, to know the conditioned as the conditioned is all that can be said about the unconditioned. So it's more practical to inquiry what is one's (true) body before one's mother and father was born and patiently abide in the Uncreate.
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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:09 pm

James,

Good points!

I'd say that it is only when the state or condition of awakening dawns that one -- including Hakuin -- knows what's-what, with regard to a body, or the body. Thus, the true body is not in "opposition" to the body that the deluded mind believes in, it's just that one is real, and actual, and alive, and hosts no-mind, while the other is a fiction, can cause karma, and is a source of suffering for oneself and others.

"This very body, the Buddha!" --Hakuin: there is no other. No other body; no other Buddha.

And when practicing in China with his Ch'an teacher Ju-Jing, Dogen underwent (experienced; completed) "Body and mind fallen-away". Indeed: when everything stops, there is emptiness, and no impediments to freedom, neither from a body, nor from any mind.

The question was "What is 'the body'?" This is the answer I still see: it's the vehicle of no-mind. To see it as such, one seems to have to become lucky -- through practice -- as Dogen did, and have "body and mind fall away". Of course, what fell completely away were the false and habitual identifications of what body is, and what mind is. They dissolve, because what happens when one is awake is that dreams evaporate and even the vapor disappears, though a memory of the past illusion may still make one laugh and clap one's hands, and I think often does!

--Joe
[james] wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:49 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:46 pm
I'd say that the body is that which is possessed of no-mind, which is the true Mind.
Anders brings up the true body, with certain attributes and characteristics. You further specify that this body is possessed of true Mind. In asking my question I was having in mind Hakuin’s Song of Zazen: “This very body is the body of Buddha”. Was Hakuin referring only to his own very body or does his statement apply to each and e.very body as is without special quality or qualification? I think the latter and wonder what use or benefit there may be in putting this very body in opposition to some so-called “true body”.
The "mind" that's not the true mind is illusion, and is not mind -- nor "a" mind at all -- but is instead a sort of disease-state of ...the body (as is also any holding of a putative "self").
Can any body be in other than a disease or dis-ease state? A body is incapable of illusion. However one might choose to describe it, it can only be truthful. So why create and aspire to a contrivance, the “true body” when in fact that is the only kind of body there is.
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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by Dan74 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:42 pm

Forgive me the simplistic take on this question, but it reminded me of the following story about Kusan Sunim, one of the foremost contemporary Korean Zen masters.

At the age of twenty-six he was stricken by a severe illness that caused him a great deal of pain. Upon seeing him in this condition, a friend who was also a devout Buddhist layman asked him, “Since the abode of the self-nature is originally pure, where does your illness lie?” These words had a deep effect on Master Kusan. Thereupon, he decided to go to Yongwon Sa monastery on Mount Chiri to recite the mantra of Avalokitesvara, Om mani padme hum, for one hundred days. Upon completing this period of recitation, he found himself cured of his illness. This experience also served to strengthen greatly his faith in Buddhism.
from Ch. 3 of The Way of Korean Zen.

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by guo gu » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:41 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:17 pm
What is the body?
a word.

gg

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by [james] » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:29 am

guo gu wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:41 pm
[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:17 pm
What is the body?
a word.
That too ...

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by Pablo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:21 pm

guo gu wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:41 pm
[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:17 pm
What is the body?
a word.

gg
That's a classic koan in the making :D
New koans for people of all ages wrote:A monk asked Guo Gu: "What is the body?" Gu answered: "A word".

Here and now, can you show me that word?
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by [james] » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:24 pm

Pablo wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:21 pm
That's a classic koan in the making :D
New koans for people of all ages wrote:A monk asked Guo Gu: "What is the body?" Gu answered: "A word".

Here and now, can you show me that word?
Even a word is a body.
What do you say Pablo?
What is the body?

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by Pablo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:37 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:24 pm
What do you say Pablo?
What is the body?
Hm.

I don't know.
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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:25 am

It's "interesting" that there is only one Mind, and that there are many bodies. Only one Mind, but many sentient beings.

Granted, it's not a Buddhist theme, but, a theme from Hinduism that I still like is that of the one Mind taking multitudinous perspectives, and charades with Itself, from its incarnation in many beings, and this, I think, being "Lila", "the Play of God".

--Joe


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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by Pablo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:38 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:25 am
It's "interesting" that there is only one Mind, and that there are many bodies. Only one Mind, but many sentient beings.
That seems (to me) a very superficial understanding. We have to go further. Let's do it together :)
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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by fuki » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:25 am
It's "interesting" that there is only one Mind, and that there are many bodies. Only one Mind, but many sentient beings.

Granted, it's not a Buddhist theme, but, a theme from Hinduism that I still like is that of the one Mind taking multitudinous perspectives, and charades with Itself, from its incarnation in many beings, and this, I think, being "Lila", "the Play of God".

--Joe



lila_.jpg
Goodday Joe, "lila, or play of God" in "Hinduism" is equivalent with "maya" in "Buddhism", "meaning" there is no core in experiences or cognition, no self or "indweller" about conditioned "things" or "consciousness" it's a transient affair hence the play of god disappears with the scene.
What I have to say about the theme, can't speak for hindu or boeddhu since people think all kinds of things. Since people try to "solidify" all kinds of concepts as this or that or not this or not that like a magician's audience, when mind comes into being the various conceptions come to be, that itself could be called "lila" if you wish.
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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by lindama » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:51 pm

Pablo wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:38 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:25 am
It's "interesting" that there is only one Mind, and that there are many bodies. Only one Mind, but many sentient beings.
That seems (to me) a very superficial understanding. We have to go further. Let's do it together :)
agree Pablo. We could say this bag of bones is another appearance of Maya to be celebrated and taken care of. Without maya, there is no play, no life.... as you say, we can go further into the un-created.

Long ago, I did a retreat on intuition. We were told to ask for a sacred name. Maya came up for me :113: .... it stopped me cold, good thing. :hatsoff: I had no real idea of what Maya was and let it seep in over the years. I never shared my name, it would have diluted the energy. So, yes, we can go further.

just now, a phrase from a 50's commercial is appearing in my head.... "don't be fooled by Mother Nature" :lol:

linda

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by lindama » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:18 pm

Anders wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:59 am


...... For a long time, I used to think that the body was more or less something the mind dragged around to experience the world with and that body meditation practises were basically training wheel methods for people who weren't ready to work with their minds.

Now I think the mind is more like a flowering expression of the body, which is in turn an expression of our true body. And a whole lot of the innate wisdom talked of is accessed naturally through the body freed of obstacles, which is basically always trying to do right by you, so long as the mind doesn't run interference on it. In that sense, it's more like a treasure house and really a locus of practise.
I've recently gone back to Tai Chi and Qi Gong. I'd agree that the mind has the potential to be a flowering expression of body. yes, nice way to put it. Also note, that the way it is taught as an exercise these days can be problematic.... if the mind is not flexible as the body. A play of the visible and invisible.

As far as I know, these are Taoist practices and I don't know how they meet. they meet for me.

linda

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by Aka spike » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:02 pm

p. 29: . . . when we examine ourselves and all other objects, elements, and conditions that seemingly exist in space and to which we give names--things like “body”, “cup”, “tree, “sky”, and so on--we observe that these arise only dependently upon many other objects, elements, and conditions .

. . all “things” exist only in relationship with and through the combining of many other “things”. As an example, I may consider my own body. Examining it, I can see that it is in fact a collection of parts, structures, and processes that only receives the label “body” when assembled in a very specific manner. In fact, I know that these parts are themselves, in turn, composed of many things I have received from my parents or have assimilated over the years from food. Already, then, it is hard to talk about my body as something truly mine or truly existing in any real manner except as a collection of constituent parts that in their origin have little to do with “me”--much as a shifting sand dune is actually a collection of grains from many places that have happened to come together . . . “body” and “me” are just names, a kind of sloppy shorthand that has been fabricated to refer to this momentary association of many things.

p. 49: As physical beings, a physically engaged practice is required to dissolve our psychophysical delusion. Only then can Zen fulfill its promise of being a path by which one may realize liberation in this lifetime, in this very body. As Omori Roshi wrote, the purpose of Zen is to “truly realize that the entire universe is the ‘True Human Body’ through the discipline of ‘body-mind oneness.’”

Re. Direct Pointing: p.147: . . . is not a fixed thing and so will manifest in many ways according to the circumstances. Still, generally speaking, we could say that such means include use of the body or physical action . . .

Moore, Meido. The Rinzai Zen way: a guide to practice

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:54 pm

Hi, Pablo,
Pablo wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:38 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:25 am
It's "interesting" that there is only one Mind, and that there are many bodies. Only one Mind, but many sentient beings.
That seems (to me) a very superficial understanding. We have to go further. Let's do it together :)
If's it's true (what I have expressed), then it's not superficial. But I express it succinctly, and with not too many goodies for greedy intellectual minds to chomp on. Maybe this is what you object to, really, instead of "superficiality". It's intentional.

Another thing is that I am in fact expressing an appreciation. I say that it is "interesting", a word that hides a depth of unspoken detail, if you like. Again, intentional.

In another post above (or maybe in two posts) I've more directly answered the question in the OP. I'll just say one more time, though, that the body is what carries and enables No-Mind. By "carries", I don't just mean in a mechanical sense, and so I add the factor of "enables". And I/we could say the Mind or No-Mind "inheres" in the body (just another way of my saying "carries").

¡Palabras! -- Good, what we can do with them, when what we do with them is good. We have to be mighty careful, writing, reading, ...and interpreting.

;)

--Joe

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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by Relinquish » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:27 pm

In my view, 'the body' can be justifiably regarded as a 'conscious impermanent discernable feature' of Reality-being-Itself.

If the question then arises, "Why does Reality-being-Itself have any conscious impermanent discernable features?", I can only answer with, "I don't know".


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Re: What is “the body”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:45 pm

I suppose it's the only game in town. --Joe
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

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