Non-conceptually, what is?

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Relinquish
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Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Relinquish » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:35 pm

This question, if used correctly, is a way to DIRECTLY experience Reality Itself.

To use it correctly is to ask it without wanting to arrive at an answer of any kind whatsoever.

Non-conceptually, what is?

Just look....

The following is a conceptual translation of what I experience when I use this question in the way it is intended to be used;

In truth, ALL 'things' and 'events' (including 'ourselves') can be justifiably regarded as 'impermanent discernable features' of Reality Itself.

Naturally, the totality of these impermanent discernable features spend their entire existence within the boundaries of one of Reality's two 'permanent discernable features'; the 'Everything' (which, as a whole, can be described as an 'ever-changing coherent asymmetry').

The so-called 'space' that apparently encompasses the 'Everything' is Reality's other permanent discernable feature; the 'Nothing' (which is itself absolutely changeless, structureless and un-encompassed).

If the 'ceaseless change' that is the 'Everything' had an absolute beginning, that beginning would also be the ending of a prior 'beginningless absence of change'. If it had an absolute ending, that ending would also be the beginning of a subsequent 'endless absence of change'. Logically, such a situation is an absolute impossibility.

Therefore (given the fact that the 'Everything' DID evidently have a beginning), this ceaseless change MUST be eternally cyclic.

If the discernable features of Reality Itself (both permanent and impermanent) COULD have been different, they WOULD have been different.

Because there is no way to know why they COULDN'T have been different, there is no way to know why they are as they are.

Likewise, the actual reason WHY Reality Itself has any discernable features at all (some of which apparently have the capacity to 'experience' themselves and their surroundings) is absolutely unknowable.

Evidently, some of the 'conscious' impermanent discernible features are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings.

This hypnosis makes it SEEM to these extremely complex 'conscious features' (or in other words, 'intelligent body/mind life-forms') that each of the impermanent discernable features (including themselves) are in fact 'solely self-inclusive' (which is to say, that they are all fundamentally existing different 'things' and 'events' that each have their own separate, independent nature), and that they themselves each have their own personal consciousness and are the autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the 'hypnotized conscious features' perceive Reality to be a vast, confusingly fragmented and threatening situation, and so perceive themselves to be isolated and vulnerable individuals. This is the illusion of multiplicity, seperateness and duality. The hypnosis it arises from is the fundamental basis of ALL suffering.

Sometimes, this hypnosis is unexplainably woken up from. This waking up is the very REALIZATION that ALL so-called 'things' and 'events' (including 'ourselves') are NEVER anything other than impermanent discernable features of Reality Itself. When this happens, the illusion that one has ever been (or will ever be) an independently existing individual naturally dissolves, as do the feelings of isolation and vulnerability that are inherently associated with this illusion.

It's simply seen that, in truth, there is ONLY EVER the Absolute Mystery that is 'Reality-being-Itself'....

But don't just take my word for it. Ask the question for yourself;

Non-conceptually, what is?

Perhaps YOU might like to share here with us a conceptual translation of what you experience with the use of this question.


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desert_woodworker
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:46 pm

Welcome!

I'd say it is an experience.

In particular, it is one's experience especially when one is awake.

--Joe

Relinquish
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Relinquish » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:46 pm
Welcome!

I'd say it is an experience.

In particular, it is one's experience especially when one is awake.

--Joe
Hi Joe. ☺

Thanks for the welcome.

Just to be clear, are you saying that 'an experience' is what 'non-conceptually is'?

Also, just to be clear, I know I fill out my description of what is experienced with alot of unnecessary (albeit entertaining, perhaps?) fluff, but all I'm REALLY saying is that last bit; "It's simply seen that, in truth, there is ONLY EVER the Absolute Mystery that is 'Reality-being-Itself'...."

After all, the MAIN point of my post was that it's title question is a good way to directly experience Reality Itself.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:50 pm

Non-conceptuality is what happens -- it is what one's experience is -- when one is awake (moment-by-moment, non-intermittently, for weeks or months).

There may be other instances -- instants -- of it when one is still deluded (not awake), but these would be fleeting, and rapidly in-filled with the competing tide of concepts, momentarily held off, but then ready to flood in (and it does/they do).

To re-phrase, non-conceptuality is what one's experience is when only the Original Mind, True Mind, No-Mind, or Original Nature is operating, and not the deluded or delusory mind.

As I see and experience it,

--Joe
Relinquish wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:46 pm
Welcome!

I'd say it is an experience.

In particular, it is one's experience especially when one is awake.

--Joe
Hi Joe. ☺

Thanks for the welcome.

Just to be clear, are you saying that 'an experience' is what 'non-conceptually is'?

Also, just to be clear, I know I fill out my description of what is experienced with alot of unnecessary (albeit entertaining, perhaps?) fluff, but all I'm REALLY saying is that last bit; "It's simply seen that, in truth, there is ONLY EVER the Absolute Mystery that is 'Reality-being-Itself'...."

After all, the MAIN point of my post was that it's title question is a good way to directly experience Reality Itself.
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

Pablo
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Pablo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:27 pm

Relinquish wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 pm
After all, the MAIN point of my post was that it's title question is a good way to directly experience Reality Itself.
Dear Relinquish,

Welcome to the forum :) I'm a relative newcomer as well.

Are you familiar with Zen practice? Do you train with a group or a teacher? The question you posit is what in Zen is usually called a koan. Koan practice is delicate, and it is usually not recommended that we practice it on our own. It is good to have someone to check us. Otherwise it is easy for us to ignore pitfalls and waste a lot of time practicing incorrectly.

I remember the first email I sent to my teacher/friend, Jeff Shore, was very similar to what you just wrote :) . I'm not a teacher, but I can tell you: that is not what "decent" koan practice looks like, and you would gain a lot from dropping it altogether. Sorry if it's too blunt, but I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't tell you.

If you want to explore your question in a way that actually helps you (and everyone else), I would encourage you to get in contact with a teacher that knows something about koans. My teacher Jeff is very approachable, and frequently does retreats in Europe and the USA (more about him here). Also, here in the forum we are lucky enough to have two very honest (and, let's face it, very cool) teachers, Meido Moore and Guo Gu. You can read what they post here in the forum and see if they strike a chord in you.

All the best from the UK :)
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

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michaeljc
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by michaeljc » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:00 am

Non-conceptually, what is?

It is what it is. What ever realisation occurs it is only temporary

No need to bother contemplating such things. This is for philosophers

Poor zen - so often interpreted as a philosophical formula

Just practice zazen. It brings what it brings, then it is gone

Just my view right now

M

Seeker242
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:08 pm

Relinquish wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:35 pm


Perhaps YOU might like to share here with us a conceptual translation of what you experience with the use of this question.

I think Non-conceptually is best left non-conceptualized. As soon as you offer up a conceptual translation, it's no longer non-conceptual, which completely misses the point! :lol:

Aka spike

Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Aka spike » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:48 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:08 pm
Relinquish wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:35 pm


Perhaps YOU might like to share here with us a conceptual translation of what you experience with the use of this question.

I think Non-conceptually is best left non-conceptualized. As soon as you offer up a conceptual translation, it's no longer non-conceptual, which completely misses the point! :lol:
Agree. Let "What is?" be a koan.

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[james]
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by [james] » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:04 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:08 pm
Relinquish wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:35 pm


Perhaps YOU might like to share here with us a conceptual translation of what you experience with the use of this question.

I think Non-conceptually is best left non-conceptualized. As soon as you offer up a conceptual translation, it's no longer non-conceptual, which completely misses the point! :lol:
Is there a separation between conceptual and non- ?
The gateless barrier perhaps.
What is the point? To recognize and comfortably inhabit both, I’d say.
As for what is, there’s no way around it. Whether conceptually or non-conceptually, it’s the only game in town as desert joe, I think, mentioned earlier.

Seeker242
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:00 pm

[james] wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:04 pm

As for what is, there’s no way around it.
I would not go so far as to say that. If you are walking down the sidewalk and there is a Cypress tree there in the way, you can step to the side and walk around. In some versions of this story, it's an oak tree. Not that it really matters what kind of tree it is, there's a way around, usually to the left or the right. :)

Whether conceptually or non-conceptually, it’s the only game in town as desert joe, I think, mentioned earlier.
Another option is to stop playing games and just drink tea, or coffee, whichever you prefer. :)

Aka spike

Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by Aka spike » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:36 am

[james] wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:04 pm

As for what is, there’s no way around it. Whether conceptually or non-conceptually, it’s the only game in town as desert joe, I think, mentioned earlier.
I don't see such a reference, currently, in this thread to "the only game in town."

Perhaps just a concept en passant?

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[james]
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by [james] » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:30 am

Yes, you’re right.
“En passant” sounds okay to me.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Non-conceptually, what is?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:47 pm

q. v. : http://zen1.space/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5 ... town#p9584

All's well,

--Joe
Aka spike wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:36 am
[james] wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:04 pm
As for what is, there’s no way around it. Whether conceptually or non-conceptually, it’s the only game in town as desert joe, I think, mentioned earlier.
I don't see such a reference, currently, in this thread to "the only game in town."

~~edited for ad hom by Mod~~
"Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind." - Ma Tsu

"Liberation is awakening to one's original nature." - Ma Tsu

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