Is there not a “truth”?

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lindama
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by lindama » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:25 pm

my take.... the title says it all.... just take away the ""?"" ie, all things are true, however fleeting..... is there not a truth = all things are true = nothing is not true.... ooops, that wasn't planned. lol

I'm all for zennisms as a direct pointing.. It cuts down on the weight. ofc, false flags could wind up with fingers lost, so to speak.... the story about the student who held up a finger imitating the teacher's teaching. The teacher cut off the student's finger. Lots of things don't make sense, it's a call to sink in.

linda

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:26 pm

hiya, Linda,
lindama wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:25 pm
Lots of things don't make sense, it's a call to sink in.
And, that's GOOD, that lots of things don't make sense. :namaste:

It shows the limitations and prescribed-domain of the moving-mind, which is not a mind at all, but just movement "somewhere between the brow and hairline", as the American Psychologist and Philosopher William James put it in his great, and greatly re-printed, book, PRINCIPLES OF PSYCHOLOGY (1890).

:bow2:

"As I see it", (with thanks to Michael (member michaeljc), and to ex-member Jundo Roshi, for this phrase),

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Pablo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:59 am

[james] wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:21 pm
Pablo wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:28 pm
[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:44 pm
Is there truth?
I leave that to philosophers. It has no relevance for my practice.
Hey James,

Thanks for the song, I didn't know it :)

Could you elaborate on what you wanted to point out with it? I have a couple of guesses, but I think it would be easier if we talk directly about it.

I realize I may have come off as an asshole with my reply. Sorry if my words offended you in any way, that was not my intent. I do think your question is a valid one, it's just I have nothing to contribute. Maybe I should have said nothing instead.
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

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Anders
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Anders » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:44 am

[james] wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Anders wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:44 am

I'm reminded of the xin xin ming:

No need to seek the real;
Just extinguish your views.
Well, sure ... seeing the reality of my views is a basic factor in recognizing the real. In any case, seeking (and finding) the real will not make it any more or less real.
I think when it's comes to things like truth viz a viz views in practice, it is, oddly enough, important to psychologise the issue and ask ourselves what is the actual effect of talking about "truth beyond views".
I’m asking about truth irrespective of views, independent of conditions, nor arising from logic and thoughtful consideration. Does talking about truth separate one from truth?
Myself I am not so sure it makes sense to have a notion of a truth we will arrive at once we go beyond views. If you have that, then you also have a platform for the continued nourishment of views.
A notion of a truth is a view isn’t it?
The point i tried to make, in oh many words, was that fundamentally I don't think there is an actual "reality" or truth to be found outside of views. Sure, the nature of mind may seem like something more real, but seeing it as such is already a mistake.

Which is why I advocated psychologising the issue - to come to terms with the fact that we will in a very concrete and meaningful (to ourselves) way never find what we're looking for.

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:56 am

Anders wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:44 am
[james] wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Anders wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:44 am

I'm reminded of the xin xin ming:

No need to seek the real;
Just extinguish your views.
Well, sure ... seeing the reality of my views is a basic factor in recognizing the real. In any case, seeking (and finding) the real will not make it any more or less real.
I think when it's comes to things like truth viz a viz views in practice, it is, oddly enough, important to psychologise the issue and ask ourselves what is the actual effect of talking about "truth beyond views".
I’m asking about truth irrespective of views, independent of conditions, nor arising from logic and thoughtful consideration. Does talking about truth separate one from truth?
Myself I am not so sure it makes sense to have a notion of a truth we will arrive at once we go beyond views. If you have that, then you also have a platform for the continued nourishment of views.
A notion of a truth is a view isn’t it?
The point i tried to make, in oh many words, was that fundamentally I don't think there is an actual "reality" or truth to be found outside of views. Sure, the nature of mind may seem like something more real, but seeing it as such is already a mistake.

Which is why I advocated psychologising the issue - to come to terms with the fact that we will in a very concrete and meaningful (to ourselves) way never find what we're looking for.
I thought I was following you up until that last sentence, Anders. "the fact that we will in a very concrete and meaningful (to ourselves) way never find what we're looking for." Meaning the seeking is its own guarantee of failure, or which?

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Anders
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Anders » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:56 am
Meaning the seeking is its own guarantee of failure, or which?
Something like that. But also, one may have authentic experiences that very much look like finding what one has been seeking all along. Plenty of room in that situation to grow a new "reality" or "truth" from it.

And that when we talk about truth beyond views, I don't think it's simple curiosity or aspiration driving it. In most cases I'd wager that there is a deep need, a want for something more real or true than our present experience. And there's a bitter medicine, to be ingested in one's own time entirely, in the fact that for the one who wants that (might I say, perhaps even thirsts for it) such a truth or reality will simply never be found.
Last edited by Anders on Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bukowski
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by bukowski » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:40 pm

One of the problems I have found with the truth is that I have changed my mind about what is the truth so many times in my life.
I believe something is definitely the truth, and then I hear a really convincing argument for the other side and well, hmm, now I'm not so sure.

I have found that all truths are subject to conditions, just like everything else, and when I really look at the truths that I hold to be the most true I can see the conditions that made them so.

As I belive genkaku used to say, just some noodling.

Metta, b. :namaste:

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by [james] » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:56 pm

Pablo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:59 am
Hey James,

Thanks for the song, I didn't know it :)

Could you elaborate on what you wanted to point out with it? I have a couple of guesses, but I think it would be easier if we talk directly about it.

I realize I may have come off as an asshole with my reply. Sorry if my words offended you in any way, that was not my intent. I do think your question is a valid one, it's just I have nothing to contribute. Maybe I should have said nothing instead.
For me there is a touching beauty to this song ... the lyrics, the melody, the singer and his ukulele. I associate beauty with truth. The subject, though, is pretense, pretending, untruth and self-delusion. I am enjoying and appreciating the tension and ambiguity of this proximity of truth (as I see it) and pretense.

I read your assertion, that the consideration of truth had no relevance to your practice, with some confusion and a hint of disbelief. How is this possible I asked myself. This guy (you, Pablo) I said, seems to be a fairly serious and focused student of Zen and yet truth is irrelevant to him. I want to know more but he’s not talking ...

I took no offense. The song for me is an expression of truth. I linked to it in my reply to you as a gift of beauty for you to enjoy.

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by [james] » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:33 pm

Pablo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:59 am
Maybe I should have said nothing instead.
“I have nothing to say/and I am saying it/and that is poetry/as I need it”: John Cage, Lecture on Nothing, 1949.

“Where the Heart Beats: John Cage, Zen Buddhism and the Inner Life of Artists” by Kay Larson. Reviewed by Maria Popova.
https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/07/0 ... ay-larson/

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[james]
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by [james] » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:42 pm

bukowski wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:40 pm
One of the problems I have found with the truth is that I have changed my mind about what is the truth so many times in my life.
How is this a problem with the truth? The “problem” is the truth.

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bukowski
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by bukowski » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:56 pm

Sorry James but that's a bit too pedantic for me.

Metta, b. :namaste:

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[james]
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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by [james] » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:02 pm

Uhh ... okay. Maybe my inner pedant has run amok.
Sorry about that.

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Pablo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:08 pm

[james] wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:56 pm

I read your assertion, that the consideration of truth had no relevance to your practice, with some confusion and a hint of disbelief. How is this possible I asked myself. This guy (you, Pablo) I said, seems to be a fairly serious and focused student of Zen and yet truth is irrelevant to him. I want to know more but he’s not talking ...

I took no offense. The song for me is an expression of truth. I linked to it in my reply to you as a gift of beauty for you to enjoy.
Thanks for your answer. I'll try to explain my position.

I have this friend, he's a philosopher. He's just finished a PhD on phenomenology and how Husserl's philosophy is flawed using Wittgenstein's methods (I don't know if that makes any sense to you). My friend knows a lot and whenever we've talked about perception, experience, belief, truth... He's always been able to rebuke my points. In the end, I had to accept I didn't know how to really defend these positions against real criticism.

Really, I don't know shit about all that stuff.

But then I asked myself: is this why I started practicing in the first place? Because I wanted truth, knowledge, understanding? Not really. I started practice because I suffered quite a lot, and these Buddhist guys said they had a better way to live. So far, they have lived up to their promise. My life now is very happy, very peaceful. Indeed, if I stick to Zen these days it is because Zen masters hint at deeper happiness and peace. Absolute freedom, they say. Boundless joy. Unending peace. So I ask myself: what is this absolute freedom? When mom shouts at me from the depths of her sorrow, where is absolute freedom? When people die of starvation around me, where is this boundless joy? When hate colors so much in the world, where is unending peace? I guess some of you here would say "Here, obviously!". But the point is not to say it: am I actually living that out, right here, right now?

So this path is not expressed as a search for truth in my case. Which doesn't mean it can manifest that way for other people like you, James. It's just I can't contribute much to the particular question.
Jeff Shore's website: https://beingwithoutself.org

Zazen in Madrid: https://pandazen.es

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by [james] » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:35 pm

Thank you Pablo.

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Seeker242 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:28 am

Is there truth?
There are lots of them. For example, you will get old, get sick and die. The question now is what do you do about this truth?

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:32 am

James, et al.,

It occurs to me to mention that the Buddha evidently denoted a quartet of "Truths" (at least as far as translation to English goes).

James, are these (or those) truths, anything like what you had in mind in asking your question?

"The Four Noble Truths" are what I mean. They appear to describe what is true when a being is in samsara, in delusion, and is suffering "there".

Of course, these are truths or facts which may or might bring a person to PRACTICE. They are not metaphysical truths, I don't think: the Buddha was not out to teach philosophy, nor to establish any particular metaphysics. Of course, his thinking had to be influenced by the "Hinduism" of the time (religion based upon the Vedas), but his eventual and cataclysmic awakening evidently showed him that such an older or errant model went only so far, and in fact had never been enough to satisfy him, Shakyamuni, and so... he practiced far beyond or far simpler than the Hindu practice of the time, and awakened after making sufficiently strong vows to wake up. His practice to me seems like what we lately call Ch'an practice, or Zen practice.

Rgds,

--Joe

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by michaeljc » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:01 am

I immediately related to Pablo's first comment. I too came to Zen through suffering. There was never any problem or question to solve, only relief from suffering. Realisations have come and gone but truth remains just a word.

I am reminded of my long dead mother. In response to my brother raising such questions she would commonly respond with "Oh I cannot be bothered with your silly nonsense!" and march off to some other chore.

If you find your truth, fine

Cheers

M

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Re: Is there not a “truth”?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:34 pm

Life is simple.From what you run after you get that!

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