the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.
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Mason
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the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:34 pm

If you're a Zen teacher, who are your students? Are they students, or are they Buddhas? If they are students, why are you a teacher? If they are Buddhas, why is your functioning so weak? If they aren't anything - get out of the ghost cave! If they are the universe, what contains the universe?

These are the traps and snares which all Buddhas and patriarchs and ordinary women and men have been using throughout the ages. The truth is - if you are a Zen teacher, if you teach your students wholeheartedly to such a point that it kills you, you give your students life. When you give your students life, they kill you totally. When you're totally dead, you give yet more life to everyone around you, in every single millisecond of every millisecond, to such a degree of perfection that reality itself becomes quite a wonderful Teacher.

If you're the kind of teacher that likes to set up stages and practices, can you really say that you've mastered them? If you're the kind of teacher that likes to penetrate the marrow and kill people straight off - why haven't we shaken hands yet?

Of course, it should go without saying, (as I am no Zen master, nor even a particularly good practitioner), this is all for us students. True adepts look at what I say, chuckle, and go on slapping people to their heart's content.

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Dan74
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:53 pm

this sounds great, Mason, but what about dying yourself before such words become true? have you?

have you abandoned all clinging, all self-seeking, all delusion??

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Mason
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:44 pm

No, I am just a practitioner. This is my practice.

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Dan74
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:55 pm

So you have not died as you advise others to do?

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Mason
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:57 pm

When you die, you come back to life. As a practitioner, to help sentient beings.

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Dan74
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:01 pm

Mason wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:57 pm
When you die, you come back to life. As a practitioner, to help sentient beings.
:bow2: :bow2: :bow2:

Was trying to understand whether your words come from experience or immitation.

Looking forward to more living words.

_/|\_

PS Last thing, do you believe in sentient beings?

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Mason
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:03 pm

> PS Last thing, do you believe in sentient beings?

Sentient beings are your own mind.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:17 am

Nice.

But Asvaghosha, in THE AWAKENING OF FAITH IN THE MAHAYANA, notes, early-on in the text's fascicles, that:

"The Buddha is the mind of the Sentient Being."

(see, e.g., Prof. Hakeda's translation [1967], p. 28).

_/|\_ ,

--Joe
Mason wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:03 pm
> PS Last thing, do you believe in sentient beings?

Sentient beings are your own mind.

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Enver M.
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:34 am

_/|\_ ,
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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desert_woodworker
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:38 am

Yes sir, Enver, you are a treasure.

_/|\_ ,

--Joe

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Enver M.
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:45 am

I am nothing.

I take refuge in Buddha, dharma and sangha.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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desert_woodworker
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:15 am

Now, now. That's What there is. --Joe
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:45 am
I am nothing.

I take refuge in Buddha, dharma and sangha.

Seeker242
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Seeker242 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:42 am

how does it move its arms?
And then how does it, all of a sudden one day, stop moving it's arms?! One minute, walking around and talking, then the next minute just nothing! What the heck is that all about! :jaw:

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Enver M.
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Enver M. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:57 am

Okay.What starts the motion?Could this be the question?
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Mason
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:23 am

Enver M. wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:57 am
Okay.What starts the motion?Could this be the question?
Nothing starts the motion. The motion is of the texture of pure qualia (suchness).

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Mason
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:51 am

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:53 pm
this sounds great, Mason, but what about dying yourself before such words become true? have you?

have you abandoned all clinging, all self-seeking, all delusion??
A more direct answer: No that would be something quite remarkable. There are many Great Deaths and Great Lifes to be had on the way to your Nature. This was the second phase of having my mind and universe pulverized that has happened so far. If the Buddha is to be believed (which it is seen here, he is) there are four of these mind/world collapsings.

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Mason
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Mason » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:20 am

Enver M. wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:45 am
I am nothing.

I take refuge in Buddha, dharma and sangha.
You do me right when you speak thusly.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:31 am

It starts at the roots of the teeth, I'd say, more or less, especially the upper ones, or near there.

(Or is it the belly-button?)

Some say the bottoms of the feet.

--Joe

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WuMing
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by WuMing » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:15 am

to answer the original question: back and forth - up and down. it is easy as that!

Kaya
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Re: the true human body - how does it move its arms?

Post by Kaya » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:59 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:42 am
how does it move its arms?
And then how does it, all of a sudden one day, stop moving it's arms?! One minute, walking around and talking, then the next minute just nothing! What the heck is that all about! :jaw:
Enver M. wrote:
Okay.What starts the motion?Could this be the question?

#97
Have I a body or have I none?
Am I who I am or am I not?
Pondering these questions,
I sit leaning against the cliff while the
years go by,
till the green grass grows between my feet
and the red dust settles on my head,
and the men of the world, thinking me
dead,
come with offerings of wine and fruit to
lay by my corpse.

Han-shan
Cold Mountain
101 Chinese Poems
Shambala, 1992

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