"Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.
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desert_woodworker
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"Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 am

On reading Kosho Uchiyama Roshi's book, Opening the Hand of Thought -- Approach to Zen (1st edition, 1993; Penguin Arkana), I find on page 127 the wonderfully concise description and perhaps suggestion or instruction (if we take it so... ), where the topic is what the practitioner does when thoughts arise in zazen, and we simply do not follow them,

"...We commit everything to the posture...

We just take the correct posture with our flesh and bones and maintain it.
" --Uchiyama

--Joe

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Enver M.
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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:07 am

Life has turn me into a philosopher. :hide: I hate that.Today I was thinking ;

about the basic needs of a human

(A few) What I find is,

the need of shelter
the need of clothing
the need of transportation
the need of eating and drinking

If you have these basic needs
you can COME INTO BEING or existence becomes
And the Ego as a follower:
Which has many dimensions (like)
Psychological (to have fun)(take pleasure)(to feel valuable)
Sociological (success)(belief)(to know everything)
etc.

FOR ME A HUMAN LIVES TO BE HAPPY.

Once ancient greece philosopher Aristo has said that& Life stands on these three to be happy

1-Money
2-Pleasure
3-Belief& or philosophy

don't know why i'm telling these.to return to the subject;

& to conclude i chose zen.

I newly begin doing zazen.as I'm new.

But in the first sittings i notice that i have to become like a matter a buddha statue or a tool.

As to surrender fully is my first step.
And becoming reality.
Without thinking.

If you take your position according to this move
you see that everything is a matter.
they are not thinking why should i?
if not searching for a meaning is understanding the teaching.

secondly, you don't need to spend any energy. 0 (zero) energy. you don't know anything.without thinking.

+There is only the sound remains which is the locusts chirring at night - level 1 ten bulls
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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[james]
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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by [james] » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:08 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 am

"...We commit everything to the posture...

We just take the correct posture with our flesh and bones and maintain it.
" --Uchiyama

--Joe
The correct posture of mind maintained in the body, each expressing the other, maybe.

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:28 am

Thanks, it could be, James, yes; and can be.

My take is that when total commitment (commission?) is given to proper posture (for oneself; and as adjusted by one's teacher; and further perfected in years of practice), there is no matter of ..."mind". In each sit, just posture.

The less "mind", the better. THAT mind is not the Buddhamind, it is the "chatty" mind, there's nothing real or universal about it; it is falsely called "mind" (it's just movement, and churning!), compared with what the Buddha-way reveals. Be done with it, and may it begone.

So I say... today.

All's well; strong practice!, All,

--Joe

Uchiyama_Roshi_1912-1998_768pixels.jpg
Uchiyama Roshi (1912-1998); already long in the tooth, here
.
Uchiyama_Roshi_1912-1998_768pixels.jpg (130.41 KiB) Viewed 232 times
[james] wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:08 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 am

"...We commit everything to the posture...

We just take the correct posture with our flesh and bones and maintain it.
" --Uchiyama
The correct posture of mind maintained in the body, each expressing the other, maybe.

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[james]
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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:29 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:28 am
The less "mind", the better. THAT mind is not the Buddhamind, it is the "chatty" mind, there's nothing real or universal about it; it is falsely called "mind" (it's just movement, and churning!), compared with what the Buddha-way reveals. Be done with it, and may it begone.
The Buddha-way reveals that all Dharmas reveal the Buddha-way ... so, not really helpful to put “mind” in opposition to “Mind”. Similarly, “Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to transform them”. The inexhaustible quality of the chatty mind may be taken on as the tools and materials of one’s understanding and insight. As none is without this chatty mind, it is indeed universal. What benefit is obtained by diminishing and dismissing it? The posture of mind is revealed in the posture of the body. Each may encourage and support the other if one is willing to undertake that commitment.

So it seems to my own relentlessly chatty “mind”.

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by fuki » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:49 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:28 am


Uchiyama_Roshi_1912-1998_768pixels.jpg
Great teeth!

I don't enjoy dental conformity (or any socially pressured physical conformity)
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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:53 pm

[james] wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:08 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 am

"...We commit everything to the posture...

We just take the correct posture with our flesh and bones and maintain it.
" --Uchiyama

--Joe
The correct posture of mind maintained in the body, each expressing the other, maybe.
Good "maybe"!

As long as the "correct posture" is strictly relative and not some enforced orthodoxy. For example, in one monastery I know of, during sesshin chair-sitters are prohibited from the main zendo and must sit in an adjacent area . . .

"Correct posture" could devolve into discrimination against the disabled, elderly, or others who just can't get into that sacred full lotus or other sanctioned pose: half, seiza, etc., or find the pain (and possible subsequent injury) a non-starter.

In rehab, I have done zazen flat on my back. In kinhin I have done it while walking, as taught. Feel free to criticize if you think either is wrong practice for being "unorthodox".

Imo, in zazen there is something more everyday-important and profound than "posture with our flesh and bones".

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:14 am

[james] wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:29 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:28 am
The less "mind", the better. THAT mind is not the Buddhamind, it is the "chatty" mind, there's nothing real or universal about it; it is falsely called "mind" (it's just movement, and churning!), compared with what the Buddha-way reveals. Be done with it, and may it begone.
The Buddha-way reveals that all Dharmas reveal the Buddha-way ... so, not really helpful to put “mind” in opposition to “Mind”. Similarly, “Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to transform them”. The inexhaustible quality of the chatty mind may be taken on as the tools and materials of one’s understanding and insight. As none is without this chatty mind, it is indeed universal. What benefit is obtained by diminishing and dismissing it? The posture of mind is revealed in the posture of the body. Each may encourage and support the other if one is willing to undertake that commitment.

So it seems to my own relentlessly chatty “mind”.
Awareness of the activity of mind in zazen reveals the fundamental koan: "Who am I?"

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[james]
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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by [james] » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:55 pm

Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:53 pm
As long as the "correct posture" is strictly relative and not some enforced orthodoxy. For example, in one monastery I know of, during sesshin chair-sitters are prohibited from the main zendo and must sit in an adjacent area . . .
If my posture is infused with arrogance and cynicism it wouldn’t matter if I was in the zendo or the parking lot. The same could be said for correct posture, recognized as being alert, resilient and welcoming to the ever changing conditions and circumstances of one’s zazen.
"Correct posture" could devolve into discrimination against the disabled, elderly, or others who just can't get into that sacred full lotus or other sanctioned pose: half, seiza, etc., or find the pain (and possible subsequent injury) a non-starter.
It could. Which is why a correct understanding of “correct posture” needs to be established.
I’m certainly no expert on the subject and am simply presenting my views.
In rehab, I have done zazen flat on my back. In kinhin I have done it while walking, as taught. Feel free to criticize if you think either is wrong practice for being "unorthodox".
No criticism from me ... I don’t hold to orthodoxy and have hardly any interest in correctness. I think that the key element of Uchiyama’s statement is “commit everything” rather than “the posture”.
Imo, in zazen there is something more everyday-important and profound than "posture with our flesh and bones".
Yes

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by lindama » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:58 pm

I read the book quite a few years ago.... Uchiyama Roshi is much more than that rather fix-ed statement, it does not represent his totality. The book is meditation....
Last edited by lindama on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Meido » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:18 pm

Of course postures should be adopted and adjusted to fit the conditions of students who are beginners, who have disabilities or injuries, and so on. Folks need to start where they are.

But it seems that discussions about meditation posture rarely focus on the essential point: why is the classic 7-point posture used in the first place? What is its function vis a vis zazen and the path as a whole?

I'm wondering what folks have to say about this, what they were taught, etc.
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:41 pm

In my experience, the full lotus posture harmonizes with proper mental posture, thus making mind/body unification (samadhi) more accessible. I have even seen people claim that full lotus, alone without any meditation technique, is powerful enough to develop siddhis. :jaw:

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 pm

Novice country bumpkin monks in medieval Japan used this posture to remain upright facing the zendo wall while they secretly slept, thus avoiding the kesaku.

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:26 pm

god damn what is siddhis?..
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by fuki » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:26 pm
god damn what is siddhis?..
Fruits and other funnies.
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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:37 pm

"Commit everything to the posture." --Uchiyama Roshi

What is that "everything"?

That is the point, friends!

:namaste:

--Joe
Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind. - Ma Tsu

Liberation is awakening to one's original nature. - Ma Tsu

The World is all that is the case. -Ludwig Wittgenstein

Why weigh anything heavy?

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:41 pm

Kaya wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 pm
Novice country bumpkin monks in medieval Japan used this posture to remain upright facing the zendo wall while they secretly slept, thus avoiding the kesaku.
These rice-bags were quite clever!

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by [james] » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:03 pm

Siddhi boyz ...?

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:33 pm

To learn about the power of posture, I find a journey into the Taoist Chi Kung world to be quite revealing. There are indeed esoteric depths to all postures, including lying like a potato on the couch.

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Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:35 am

Whatever the posture is, "commit" to it, to short-circuit the distracting influence of unhelpful and unwanted distracting "thoughts".

I think this is what the late Uchiyama Roshi was getting at, and was not specifying or detailing any particular posture(s). Why think and post otherwise? (aside from revealing your prejudices). :hatsoff:

--Joe
Ignorance is to be ignorant of one's original mind. - Ma Tsu

Liberation is awakening to one's original nature. - Ma Tsu

The World is all that is the case. -Ludwig Wittgenstein

Why weigh anything heavy?

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