"Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.
Kaya
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:25 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:35 am
Whatever the posture is, "commit" to it, to short-circuit the distracting influence of unhelpful and unwanted distracting "thoughts".

I think this is what the late Uchiyama Roshi was getting at, and was not specifying or detailing any particular posture(s). Why think and post otherwise? (aside from revealing your prejudices). :hatsoff:

--Joe
Why? Well, how about if you haven't read the book, don't know the author's intent, or been given all the context? You express ignorance/doubt as well, saying you only "think" you know what Roshi was getting at.

Your use of the word "prejudice" when others express an opinion different from yours is a clear pejorative and thus degrades your argument.

Kaya
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:48 am

Meido wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:18 pm
Of course postures should be adopted and adjusted to fit the conditions of students who are beginners, who have disabilities or injuries, and so on. Folks need to start where they are.

But it seems that discussions about meditation posture rarely focus on the essential point: why is the classic 7-point posture used in the first place? What is its function vis a vis zazen and the path as a whole?

I'm wondering what folks have to say about this, what they were taught, etc.
To understand the benefit of correct posture, students can read your book, pp 87 - 103, for a thorough introduction.

I was taught to begin with counting breaths, and awareness of the activity of the mind. Later I was given koans.

I believe the seven point posture provides a rock solid foundation that supports practice, especially the flow of enriching energy. Instructions about each point are valuable.

There are potential pitfalls to wrong posture, as discussed in your book. I also believe incorrect posture can contribute to potentially harmful consequences when joriki power that naturally develops and arises during practice gets dammed up in a lower chakra, especially the Svadhistana (sacral) ...

User avatar
Mason
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:22 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:35 am
Whatever the posture is, "commit" to it, to short-circuit the distracting influence of unhelpful and unwanted distracting "thoughts".
That's some good, basic Buddhism but I don't think it fully captures the meaning of the Soto emphasis on posture.

In Soto, enlightenment is a way of doing things. Drop off body and mind, and body and mind are transformed into pure responsiveness. Every action must be an answer to the source of all koans. Enlightenment is a way of using the mind and the body to actualize the myriad things in their myriadness. When you move your hand, you move the entire universe effortlessly. Letting go of your hands, hands reach out to support you.

In adopting the seven point posture, we actualize the lineage of enlightened masters. This posture itself is a koan, and to answer this koan, you must commit EVERYTHING to your posture. One master even broke his leg to adopt the correct posture. So it is important, but it is also an ideal. If we don't meet the ideal (and really, do we ever?), we just do our best with the conditions available.

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:31 pm

Could anyone, please summarize the seven point posture? What are the seven points shortly, pls. wonder if my zazen is true?

:namaste:
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:37 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Enver M. wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:26 pm
god damn what is siddhis?..
Fruits and other funnies.
ok :D
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by [james] » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:31 pm
Could anyone, please summarize the seven point posture? What are the seven points shortly, pls. wonder if my zazen is true?

:namaste:
You could Google “7 point meditation posture”, lots of information, much of it repetitive. Whether you have that posture mastered or not has no bearing on the trueness of your zazen. It could be a wonderful expression and support of your practice, it could also be window dressing.

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:18 pm

i see..tenx
:namaste:
Last edited by Enver M. on Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

User avatar
[james]
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Are we there yet?

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by [james] » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:30 pm

Perhaps “mastered” is too strong a word, above.

If one has actualised the full potential of this posture, is there room for falseness?

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:36 pm

watching a western movie (Lawman, 1971) right, now.so will make you a western mouth;
"we are on the same side cowboy"
: D
Last edited by Enver M. on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:40 pm

"to be quick is not important
you should read the people"

from the movie
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

User avatar
Mason
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:53 pm

Basically the thing that I think Dogen wanted to avoid was "ghost cave" zazen, or in other words, a purely mental practice. Practice needs to be ENACTED with the body. True mind/body coalescence is dhyana samadhi, i.o.w. zazen. Whatever posture you can assume for practice, EMBODY that posture and throw the entire universe into it.

User avatar
Mason
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:54 pm

If done properly, zazen should feel like adamantine, iron-clad open space. Though they don't much say this in Zen, it should also be supremely blissful. IMHO of course.

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:09 pm

Mason wrote: Whatever posture you can assume for practice, EMBODY that posture and throw the entire universe into it.
the most beautiful words that i heard recently.

it should also be supremely blissful.
thnks mason.
Last edited by Enver M. on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:13 pm

Mason wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:53 pm
Basically the thing that I think Dogen wanted to avoid was "ghost cave" zazen, or in other words, a purely mental practice. Practice needs to be ENACTED with the body. True mind/body coalescence is dhyana samadhi, i.o.w. zazen. Whatever posture you can assume for practice, EMBODY that posture and throw the entire universe into it.
What he said

User avatar
Enver M.
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Location: Ankara, turkey

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Enver M. » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:16 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:40 pm
"to be quick is not important
you should read the people"

from the movie
movies can be educational, too

some of them, at least
jump to the water (how will you learn to swim)

This is Dogen's dropping off body and mind

In my words, Both Bull & Self Transcended

Kaya
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:23 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:26 pm
god damn what is siddhis?..
Definitions of siddhi
Noun
1 complete understanding and enlightenment possessed by a siddha, a person who has achieved spiritual realization and supernatural power. .

2 a paranormal power possessed by a siddha.

Kaya
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Kaya » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:25 pm

[james] wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm
Enver M. wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:31 pm
Could anyone, please summarize the seven point posture? What are the seven points shortly, pls. wonder if my zazen is true?

:namaste:
You could Google “7 point meditation posture”, lots of information, much of it repetitive. Whether you have that posture mastered or not has no bearing on the trueness of your zazen. It could be a wonderful expression and support of your practice, it could also be window dressing.
Not up-to-date on the status of the use of google in Turkey. There evidently have been past issues.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by fuki » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:29 pm

[james] wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:30 pm
Perhaps “mastered” is too strong a word, above.

If one has actualised the full potential of this posture, is there room for falseness?
To me using words so easily as "mind" "body" "posture" and solidifying some internal narrative with the usual conceptual distinctions is just brain fodder, getting trapped in a verbal net of our own making. Just "sit" and see what happens.
Mason wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:53 pm
EMBODY that posture and throw the entire universe into it.
Image
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

User avatar
Mason
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by Mason » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:08 pm

Santa always acts according to the principle of karma, i.e. delicious bliss or flavorless coal. How does he function so well, with such balance? By dissolving into pure myth!

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: "Commit everything to the posture" --Uchiyama Roshi

Post by fuki » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:12 pm

Mason wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:08 pm
Santa always acts according to the principle of karma, i.e. delicious bliss or flavorless coal. How does he function so well, with such balance? By dissolving into pure myth!
:109:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Post Reply