From dreams to actualization . . .

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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clyde
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From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by clyde » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
. . . when one awakens, everything may stop, and remain stopped for a long while, depending on the strength of the awakening. In the time when everything is stopped, there are no thoughts. For weeks or months. Perhaps longer. No dreams at night, either. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, in direct response and spontaneous response to actions and conditions and beings, just at the moment that actions and conditions arise, without a hairsbreadth of time-delay. Such is our marvelous, original mind (Original Mind; Buddha Mind).
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Crystal » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:49 am

clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
. . . when one awakens, everything may stop, and remain stopped for a long while, depending on the strength of the awakening. In the time when everything is stopped, there are no thoughts. For weeks or months. Perhaps longer. No dreams at night, either. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, in direct response and spontaneous response to actions and conditions and beings, just at the moment that actions and conditions arise, without a hairsbreadth of time-delay. Such is our marvelous, original mind (Original Mind; Buddha Mind).
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.


I don't dream - but I certainly don't claim to be "awakened"! I also tend to view those who make public claims to "awakening" or "enlightenment" on the internet as attention seekers, rather than people who are genuinely special in any way.

The Buddhist teachers I have received advice from in the outside world have certainly never made such claims.

What is left unsaid can often be more meaningful than what is said.


_/|\_
Last edited by Crystal on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:16 pm

clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Personal experience, but you can see it in the teachings too, if you don't read everything "literally" "stopping" refers to the deluded mind, or the non-arising of the deluded mind, at least in my experience, but Joe may have something more to say, in the teachings you can check Tilopa's Mahamudra, Longchenpa's Natural Perfection, or in Ch'an; Song of Mind, with Sheng Yen's commentary.
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:26 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:16 pm
clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Personal experience, but you can see it in the teachings too, if you don't read everything "literally" "stopping" refers to the deluded mind, or the non-arising of the deluded mind, at least in my experience, but Joe may have something more to say, in the teachings you can check Tilopa's Mahamudra, Longchenpa's Natural Perfection, or in Ch'an; Song of Mind, with Sheng Yen's commentary.
Most people do not remember their dreams, but can be observed to be dreaming by monitors (brain wave measurement or visible changes in facial expression, movement, etc.)

BTW, post-kensho Hakuin not only dreamt, he had an important “awakening” in one. In the Chinese records there are similar accounts by senior teachers.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:50 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:26 pm


BTW, post-kensho Hakuin not only dreamt, he had an important “awakening” in one. In the Chinese records there are similar accounts by senior teachers.
Yes, I mentioned this before and shared a transliteration from a friend from a Vajrayana teacher many times, with dreams/visions it also doesn't mean there is no more "mind" or dreams, just no deluded dreams/mind. I'm often aware that I'm dreaming or "deep sleeping" btw, partly because this was part of my practise or interest, lots of spontaneous happenings as a kid and picked up later as a "practise" Hence the Vajrayana "vehicle" has been most helpful in certain areas, most replies I got from Ch'an teachers is "I can't help you with that/no experience" Just like a carpenter can't help you with welding for instance. :hatsoff:

Cao here's the example I was talking about;
https://freetransliterations.wordpress. ... of-dudjom/
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 pm

The link to The Last Prayer of Dudjom reminded me of Karmapa’s Dream Flag:

http://www.dharma-haven.org/dream-flag.htm
dream flag.gif
dream flag.gif (5.27 KiB) Viewed 493 times
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:49 pm

clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:55 pm
The link to The Last Prayer of Dudjom reminded me of Karmapa’s Dream Flag:

http://www.dharma-haven.org/dream-flag.htm

dream flag.gif
Wonderful, thanks Clyde that would look great on the balcony, I'll get some painting done on the glass panels.
It are also the two colors representing this town,
[SPOILER]
Flag_of_Zandvoort.svg.png
Flag_of_Zandvoort.svg.png (6.17 KiB) Viewed 484 times
:115:
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:49 pm

Hi, Clyde,
clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
. . . when one awakens, everything may stop, and remain stopped for a long while, depending on the strength of the awakening. In the time when everything is stopped, there are no thoughts. For weeks or months. Perhaps longer. No dreams at night, either. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, in direct response and spontaneous response to actions and conditions and beings, just at the moment that actions and conditions arise, without a hairsbreadth of time-delay. Such is our marvelous, original mind (Original Mind; Buddha Mind).
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Thanks, Clyde. Why?; why do you ask? I don't impugn the curiosity, though.

It's from both. It's definitely my experience. And dreamless-sleep testimony can be found in the hoary literature as well. I can't now say just where. Lots of water over and under the dam, or bridge, during the decades, don't you know. ;)
_/|\_ ,

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:53 am

Curiosity. And it seems there’s some reports of enlightened Buddhist teachers dreaming.

In any case, I hold the view (but not too tightly) that awakening doesn’t happen in one way or produce one result, that there are some general characteristics, but also individual differences.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:58 am

clyde wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:53 am
Curiosity. And it seems there’s some reports of enlightened Buddhist teachers dreaming.

In any case, I hold the view (but not too tightly) that awakening doesn’t happen in one way or produce one result, that there are some general characteristics, but also individual differences.
Yessir.

Also a time-spread of effects, or manifestations. No dreams for a few months, and then dreams return. No thoughts (can't even FORCE one to arise!), and then thoughts do return.

Mind you!, I can only speak about the Ch'an- / Zen-Buddhist area and realm of phenomenology of awakening. I am not a Vajrayana practitioner, nor etc.

There's no literature on this. Except at places like this. Tnx,

:namaste:

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Crystal » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:58 am

clyde wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:53 am
And it seems there’s some reports of enlightened Buddhist teachers dreaming.

A prediction of a future event in a dream is sometimes a rare possibility, both for those who are teachers and those who are students. However I'm speaking from a Vajrayana/Theravada viewpoint, I don't know about Zen.

Generally however, I was told by a late Tibetan teacher that its best not to take dreams (or things that other people say) too seriously.


_/|\_

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:14 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:58 am
phenomenology of awakening
Are you saying there are states of being that are observed while awakening?

From what I know, kensho is but a glimpse of the Buddha mind.
Work, practice must continue to deepen the awakening
Do you think that the conditions might be different for a much deeper awakening?

Sorry, this only makes for more mental fodder to be turned over by the mind.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:23 am

Av, hi,

The particulars of awakening may be recalled after awakening, yes definitely.

And recalled perhaps better when awakening is covered-up again (and that's when we come to most feel we yearn for it back).

Please don't give us the baloney of "glimpse of Buddha mind". When you awaken, you either awaken or you do do not (but, ...you DO).

There's no 'glimpse'. Usually it's weeks or months. Weeks or months before the Three Poisons overpower your daily practice after awakening, and the samadhi-state erodes and corrodes. But then, as a Bodhisattva, you're back with all beings who may have never practiced, and you can possibly do some more good even then, knowing what the situation really, truly is, 'ONE being, if that many'.

Well, see how it goes for you.
There is no equivocation. Your teacher will see to that! :lol: Don't try this (only) at home. :namaste:

best,

--Joe

avisitor wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:14 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:58 am
phenomenology of awakening
Are you saying there are states of being that are observed while awakening?

From what I know, kensho is but a glimpse of the Buddha mind.
Work, practice must continue to deepen the awakening
Do you think that the conditions might be different for a much deeper awakening?

Sorry, this only makes for more mental fodder to be turned over by the mind.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:50 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:23 am
Please don't give us the baloney of "glimpse of Buddha mind". When you awaken, you either awaken or you do do not (but, ...you DO).

There's no 'glimpse'.
Baloney??
Struck a nerve??
Maybe it was just the word, glimpse, that bothers you?

I only say what I have heard or understand.
But, you are the one who has experienced such.
If you tell me that your awakening is the same as the Buddha's awakening
And your understanding is just as great as the Buddha when he awakened
I will beat a path to your door step to learn from you.

Yeah, you are either awakened or you do not
You are either swimming or you are drowning
But, have you tried the back stroke?

It is either black or white
But, have you seen all the colors in between?

I am the dunce, the fool, the one who has the faith to follow the Buddha's Dharma
Are you saying there is no difference in the depth of awakenings??

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:13 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:50 am
Baloney??
Struck a nerve??
Maybe it was just the word, glimpse, that bothers you?
That "glimpse"-business is a word and falsehood used by people who have not practiced, or have not practiced to the point of awakening. It's just uninformed.

If you have awakened, and your teacher confirms this, then you are awake, at least for that time (it may be for weeks and months). Weeks and months of "no mind", and of dwelling in emptiness, and of true Wisdom and true Compassion arising spontaneously and simultaneously as a result of and in response to happenings and circumstances, and beings, just as they occur with no delay nor deliberation. This is not a "glimpse" of Buddha Mind, it is living Buddha Mind exactly and unambiguously, unequivocally. See what your teacher says. So, "glimpse" is baloney, yes. But not as tasty.

Many have awakened through our Ch'an- and Zen- Buddhist practices, with teacher and sangha. Wonderful as this truly is, this should not be considered a rarity, nor certainly an impossibility.

Shakyamuni did not and does not have a corner on the market, no, Av. If you think otherwise, well, then, Zen Buddhist practice is probably not for you, if you thought it ever was. But, no, I know, people may try to practice for different "reasons" (not all have faith that they may awaken, or that they already dwell in Buddha Mind; some practice for Health; good mental Concentration; acquiring benefits to help them in their intellectual Work; or other practical and laudable reasons usually lumped, however, under the disparaging term... "Buji"-Zen).

Be reminded though that awakening, should it occur, may not last "forever". And so, we practice (after awakening, also; ask your teacher).

Your teacher can tell you all of this and maybe more.

Study with me only if you want to learn or brush-up the physical methods that support zazen and development to the onset and support of samadhi states, because that's all I'm authorized and trained to teach. For meditation methods, I can only teach the 6 or 7 Beginner's methods that Sheng Yen taught us, which are simple Ch'an techniques, and basically "Human".

Probably just as well, though, if you were, say, instead to take regular Yoga classes near you, because it seems unlikely we'll meet. Something is better than nothing. Even if you think Yoga is familiar to you, it's good to be breaking new ground all the time, so a class situation could be the thing, if you think of checking into that. Nobody's fault, if there no time for this, or if it's easy just to dismiss it.

Although, in the Ch'an tradition it is said that, "To have nothing is better than to have something good". But this is a very (!) fine play on words in Chinese because "kai wu" -- 'to have nothing' -- is also the Ch'an Buddhist technical term for "enlightenment", awakening. It refers to having no mind, and refers to dwelling in emptiness. And, of course that's better than "having" something good. For oneself and for all beings.

Well, as I see it.

rgds,

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:11 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:13 pm
That "glimpse"-business is a word and falsehood used by people who have not practiced, or have not practiced to the point of awakening. It's just uninformed.
I’ll have to disagree about this point. I’ve heard and read Zen teachers (and other Buddhist teachers) use the word “glimpse” (also, “taste”) to mean a momentary insight.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:42 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:11 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:13 pm
That "glimpse"-business is a word and falsehood used by people who have not practiced, or have not practiced to the point of awakening. It's just uninformed.
I’ll have to disagree about this point. I’ve heard and read Zen teachers (and other Buddhist teachers) use the word “glimpse” (also, “taste”) to mean a momentary insight.
You're not disagreeing, Clyde, but you're talking about something completely Other (which is your prerogative).

But it's at least mildly off-topic.

I think Av used the words "glimpse of Buddha Mind". There's no such thing. Original or Buddha mind is either in-place (in-force, and not displaced by a delusory mind any longer), or, it is not.

One may or might have glimpses of other "things" at some times, which even a teacher may comment on in your practice, but Buddha Mind or original mind is not a thing. It is nothing. It is no-mind. There's not and never a "glimpse" of it. Again, it is either un-displaced by delusory mind and hence fully in-force for the while, or else it is covered-up.

This is as I see it and as I would advertise it.

Insight is not involved in this practice (although some may feel that insight or insights definitely come along somewhere, along the way of practice, in general). But sudden disappearance of the delusory mind, and its absence lasting weeks or months, is what constitutes the reality of "Entering the Door of Ch'an", or perhaps said as "Seeing One's Original Nature" (in other lineages). Insight is not the point of the practice. Awakening to Buddha Mind IS. This is what is meant in Ch'an and Zen in saying that the tradition carries and transmits these practices "in order to Universalize Buddha Shakyamuni's awakening".

Well, as I see it.

:namaste:

So, "Baloney!", then, yes, still, on glimpses, I maintain. ;) For all Beings.

(such feelings of having a glimpse of something extraordinary may bolster one's spirit or stamina on retreat to "go on", however. But again, glimpses and insights are not here the point of Zen Buddhist practice, and, in fact, they are ultimately illusions. Instead, transformation is the point. "Settle for no substitutes" Not easy!, and so, teacher and sangha are needed, as always. That is, if there's to be a chance of awakening and having it confirmed [tested and confirmed] ).

Others dither and say it happens other ways, but if it's not confirmed by one's teacher, well, that's empty guesswork by clueless reporters, and to be disregarded if one feels oneself to be a Ch'an or Zen Buddhist or to be in sympathy with the factual details of practice within these traditions. Caveat emptor!

Well, see how it sits.

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:23 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:42 pm
You're not disagreeing, Clyde, but you're talking about something completely Other (which is your prerogative).
No, I was not talking about “something completely Other.” And I have heard and read Zen teachers (and other Buddhist teachers) use the term “glimpse” in conjunction with “Buddhanature”, sunyata, and Mind. Even one of the 10 Ox Herding pictures is sometimes referred to as “The First Glimpse of the Bull”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:35 am

clyde wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:23 am
Even one of the 10 Ox Herding pictures is sometimes referred to as “The First Glimpse of the Bull”.
Sure. It may indeed be of the Bull. And so I say bull-oney.

I'm emphasizing awakening over glimpses and insights, because awakening is the point of the practice. Teachers may, tongue-in-cheek, congratulate students for glimpses (of something), but it's to encourage them to go on to awaken. There is no glimpse of Buddha Mind. Buddha Mind is itself its own way of operating, and is not sensed (glimpsed) from delusory mind. It can't and doesn't happen. Completely apples and oranges. No bull.

As I see it,

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Spike » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:53 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:13 pm
avisitor wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:50 am
Baloney??
Struck a nerve??
Maybe it was just the word, glimpse, that bothers you?
That "glimpse"-business is a word and falsehood used by people who have not practiced, or have not practiced to the point of awakening. It's just uninformed.
You're no qualified judge of that, although you falsely claim that authority.
desert_woodworker wrote: Shakyamuni did not and does not have a corner on the market, no, Av. If you think otherwise, well, then, Zen Buddhist practice is probably not for you, if you thought it ever was. But, no, I know, people may try to practice for different "reasons" . . .under the disparaging term... "Buji"-Zen).
How insulting!
desert_woodworker wrote: Study with me only if you want to learn or brush-up the physical methods that support zazen and development to the onset and support of samadhi states, because that's all I'm authorized and trained to teach. For meditation methods, I can only teach the 6 or 7 Beginner's methods that Sheng Yen taught us, which are simple Ch'an techniques, and basically "Human".
You are slipping through a loophole that prohibits authorized teachers, if "ordained", to participate here. Your comments are not just obnoxious but also indefensible and drenched in self-righteousness.
desert_woodworker wrote:Well, as I see it.
And only.

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