From dreams to actualization . . .

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Fri May 10, 2019 9:21 am

Hope all your sprockets are well on the mend :D

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri May 10, 2019 3:37 pm

Kanji wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:04 am
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Kanji is back...
:105: more or less upright!
More or less upright? I know that feeling! I had surgery 5 weeks ago, and just before it was scheduled my back went out, what with hip arthritis, back arthritis, and something called piriformis syndrome all at the same time. I'm trying to just shrug it off, but it keeps shrugging me off. The body has a mind of its own.

People here were worried about you. I don't know if we conveyed that. In Zen we don't have easy access to Dharani or prayer that we can run to, but I'm sure you were held up to the Light in similar fashion as best as possible!
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Kanji
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Kanji » Sat May 11, 2019 6:06 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Kanji wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:04 am
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:04 pm
:115:
Kanji is back...
:105: more or less upright!
More or less upright? I know that feeling! I had surgery 5 weeks ago, and just before it was scheduled my back went out, what with hip arthritis, back arthritis, and something called piriformis syndrome all at the same time. I'm trying to just shrug it off, but it keeps shrugging me off. The body has a mind of its own.

People here were worried about you. I don't know if we conveyed that. In Zen we don't have easy access to Dharani or prayer that we can run to, but I'm sure you were held up to the Light in similar fashion as best as possible!
That sounds terrible, a lot of pain! It's a lot easier to say than do to shrug that off, in my case the morphine helped, chemical nirvana! :D you get well, I am very moved by the concern shown here, thank you all :115:

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Kanji
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Kanji » Sat May 11, 2019 6:41 am

Larry wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:21 am
Hope all your sprockets are well on the mend :D
Thank you Larry, I'm a bit wonky on the gear shifts still, but powering up :D

Caodemarte
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Caodemarte » Sat May 11, 2019 2:29 pm

Best wishes!

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Kanji
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kanji » Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 am

clyde wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:07 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:32 pm
Clyde, should he choose to, has the opportunity to study in the present with Zen teachers, who will, in fact, test him/you. It's the way things work now.
Joe; Thank you. You helped me see how I am - a Buddha Dharma lover with a preference for Zen, but without becoming a Zen student to a Zen teacher.

I respect the Zen Way and support it; Zen provides a home for me, but I don’t want a relationship in which I’m tested. I want and have, thankfully, Dharma friends.

As for testing, the whole world tests me; it’s the way it works.
Amen to that Clyde! I always hated exams. And examiners. I have an 'I ❤️ Ikkyu' tattoo, I'm not saying where! :evil:

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon May 13, 2019 4:08 am

Kanji wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 am
I have an 'I ❤️ Ikkyu' tattoo, I'm not saying where! :evil:
wait... what ?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Kanji
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kanji » Mon May 13, 2019 4:41 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:08 am
Kanji wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 am
I have an 'I ❤️ Ikkyu' tattoo, I'm not saying where! :evil:
wait... what ?
Ikkyu is a good example of someone who didn't like rules, or conform in any way, and was also very forthright about the hypocrisy existing in the monastic order of his day. The tattoo bit was a joke!

Caodemarte
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Caodemarte » Mon May 13, 2019 10:18 pm

Kanji wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:41 am
...
Ikkyu is a good example of someone who didn't like rules, or conform in any way, and was also very forthright about the hypocrisy existing in the monastic order of his day. The tattoo bit was a joke!
As an illegitimate royal child farmed out to the monastery he may be an example of a sexually abusive childhood in the monasteries. It would explain the apparently compulsive nature of his sexuality. To me, he seems more of a victim than a free spirit.

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Nothing
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Nothing » Tue May 14, 2019 9:52 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:18 pm
Kanji wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:41 am
...
Ikkyu is a good example of someone who didn't like rules, or conform in any way, and was also very forthright about the hypocrisy existing in the monastic order of his day. The tattoo bit was a joke!
As an illegitimate royal child farmed out to the monastery he may be an example of a sexually abusive childhood in the monasteries. It would explain the apparently compulsive nature of his sexuality. To me, he seems more of a victim than a free spirit.
:560:

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Tue May 14, 2019 10:33 am

Suggesting iconic Zen masters are victims is an interesting perspective. Reminds me of that old thread on ZFI asking if Hakuin needed psychotherapy. Maybe, in Ken Wilber's terms, the old masters weren't too good at growing up and cleaning up. Or, are we all ultimately victims?

Caodemarte
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Caodemarte » Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 pm

Larry wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:33 am
Suggesting iconic Zen masters are victims is an interesting perspective. Reminds me of that old thread on ZFI asking if Hakuin needed psychotherapy. Maybe, in Ken Wilber's terms, the old masters weren't too good at growing up and cleaning up. Or, are we all ultimately victims?
Cause and effect is not something we separate from. It is what we are.

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fuki
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Tue May 14, 2019 6:31 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:18 pm
It would explain the apparently compulsive nature of his sexuality.
I haven't heared/read about this, though I love some of his poems, could you give some details/examples what you mean with his compulsive sexual nature/behaviour?
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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Tue May 14, 2019 6:35 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 pm
Cause and effect is not something we separate from. It is what we are.
Sure, but that's also a way of thinking (anything involving "cause and effect")
it merely has expedient value, I would say not seperate but also not what we are, unless one wants to identify either "personally" or "collectively" with "cause and effect"
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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Tue May 14, 2019 6:36 pm

Larry wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:33 am
Or, are we all ultimately victims?
I wouldn't say "victim" but yes most of us had a rough start on this prison planet, and hence we are emotionally contracted individuals.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Tue May 14, 2019 6:40 pm

ps not or not-not nitpicking on words, but there's no such thing as "from"
when there's a from this-to-that, it's still a dream
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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Caodemarte
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue May 14, 2019 7:49 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:31 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:18 pm
It would explain the apparently compulsive nature of his sexuality.
I haven't heared/read about this, though I love some of his poems, could you give some details/examples what you mean with his compulsive sexual nature/behaviour?

Reading his poetry may provide examples. Ikkyu can be viewed as a saint, folk hero, a heretic, a pointer out of hypocrisy, and a tragic sufferer at the same time. He would be the first to say he should not be imitated or a role model.

There was an article about his possible mental problems regarding sex in the now taken down Sweeping Zen website and
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... sex-addict

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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Tue May 14, 2019 8:29 pm

Thanks, I think I understand (to some degree)
In any case I love him for being so open, it's easy to only share what's not frowned upon, reminds me of Milarepa Song;

"This is the song of Milarepa to some patrons from Drin who were ashamed because of the Jetsun’s lack of conventional behaviour:

Through wandering long in many places, I have forgotten my native land.
Staying long with my Holy Jetsun, I have forgotten all my kinsmen.
Keeping for long the Buddha’s Teaching, I have forgotten worldly things.
Staying for long in hermitages, I have forgotten all diversions.

Through long watching of monkeys’ play,I have forgotten sheep and cattle.
Long accustomed to a tinder-box, I have forgotten all household chores.
Long used to solitude without servant or master, I have forgotten courteous manners.
Long accustomed to be carefree, I have forgotten worldly shame.
Long accustomed to the mind coming and going By itself,
I have forgotten how to hide things. larry

Long used to burning Duma-heat, I have forgotten clothing.
Long accustomed to practising Non-discriminating Wisdom,
I have forgotten all distracting thoughts.
Long used to practising the Two-in-One Illumination, I have forgotten all nonsensical ideas.

These twelve ’oblivions’ are the teachings of this yogi. Why, dear patrons, do you not also follow them?
I have untied the knot of dualism; What need have I to follow your customs. To me, Bodhi is spontaneity itself!
The Dharma of you worldly people Is too difficult to practise. Caring for nought, I live the way I please.
Your so-called ’shame’ only brings deceit And fraud; How to pretend I know not."

Thanks again, no judgement here nor have I ever met the fella,
may all be well.
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desert_woodworker
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 14, 2019 11:40 pm

clyde wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:24 am
I am familiar with the Zen concept/metaphor of “pecking” which confirms my statement that “a teacher may be wonderfully helpful”. But “pecking” isn’t the cause of awakening though a practitioner may feel immense gratitude to a teacher.
Dear Clyde, dunno if I understand your sense of "causation" of awakening. But, ripeness is of course necessary, but sometimes not sufficient.

In such a case (cases), a Zen or Ch'an Buddhist teacher may naturally and Compassionately use "pecking". Let's speak no more of it. Folks may become curious.

:namaste:

--Joe

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clyde
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by clyde » Wed May 15, 2019 2:13 am

Ahh . . . ripeness! Yes, at that point, the sound of a stone striking bamboo may “cause” awakening.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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