From dreams to actualization . . .

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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lindama
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by lindama » Wed May 15, 2019 2:39 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:28 pm
Larry wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:33 am
Suggesting iconic Zen masters are victims is an interesting perspective. Reminds me of that old thread on ZFI asking if Hakuin needed psychotherapy. Maybe, in Ken Wilber's terms, the old masters weren't too good at growing up and cleaning up. Or, are we all ultimately victims?
Cause and effect is not something we separate from. It is what we are.
Dear Ones,
I've been tempted to comment on this thread from the beginning. it seems to me that at the end of the day it's not worth it. so, i'll stay with the basics, Hakuin was a key figure at my sangha, he turns things upside down... it's about us,not him and his supposed diagnosis. All I can say about Ken Wilbur is that his book "No Boundary" was the first book I read, even before Buddhism.... don't underestimate it. ofc, no zen master is perfect, it's time to get over that idea.... past time. Time to recognize that being a zen master is a calling that can not be ignored.... and also time to recognize that being a zen master is a sacrifice for the rest of us. Ten thousand bows to our zen masters. Cause and effect is not a death sentence... if we are wise, we will learn to play the hand dealt with love.

As far as dreams go, consider that waking or sleeping, no diff.

linda

Caodemarte
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Caodemarte » Wed May 15, 2019 3:49 am

I don’t personally know of such a “diagnosis” of Hakuin by people who have actually studied him and would frankly be quite skeptical.

Ikkyu is a different case, whose poems and behavior seem to indicate great suffering and instability as well as a deep understanding of Zen. Given the conditions of his upbringing it is reasonable to assume there could be a connection between his childhood and later problems. Like Lord Byron, he was a great poet and terrible lifestyle model, whose problems should not be romanticized. From his poetry, Ikkyu would have been appalled by anyone who tried.

There are malevolent or foolish fakers who pose as Zen teachers. I don’t think Ikkyu was one of them.

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lindama
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by lindama » Wed May 15, 2019 4:29 am

well, let's forget romanticizing anyone.... Ikku was a great poet, as many are in the art of suffering and instability. I don't care a whip about what he would say, tho he is right.... it rings the bell. For heavens sake, we must drop the idea of a lifestyle model.... much less the perfect one.

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Kanji
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kanji » Wed May 15, 2019 8:38 am

As an illegitimate royal child farmed out to the monastery he may be an example of a sexually abusive childhood in the monasteries. It would explain the apparently compulsive nature of his sexuality. To me, he seems more of a victim than a free spirit.
[/quote]

Both, probably. It's not unusual (to quote Tom Jones) and Shunryu Suzuki had a childhood that wasn't exactly happy either so who knows, maybe realisation and suffering have a connection?

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Kanji
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Kanji » Wed May 15, 2019 9:01 am

lindama wrote:
no zen master is perfect, it's time to get over that idea.... past time. Time to recognize that being a zen master is a calling that can not be ignored.... and also time to recognize that being a zen master is a sacrifice for the rest of us. Ten thousand bows to our zen masters. Cause and effect is not a death sentence... if we are wise, we will learn to play the hand dealt with love.

As far as dreams go, consider that waking or sleeping, no diff.

linda
:560: Also feel that wisdom is core and life is about how we cope with the cards. Luck be a lady! :D

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fuki
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Wed May 15, 2019 9:18 am

Kanji wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:38 am
maybe realisation and suffering have a connection?
https://ramana-maharshi.weebly.com/vasanas.html
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:29 am
For heavens sake, we must drop the idea of a lifestyle model.... much less the perfect one.
And yet there are certain lifestyles more conducive to awakening and actualization than others.

I highly recommend writing naughty innuendo on Zen forums :lol:
I'm just a victim :114:

No, really, I can't stand innuendo. If I spot one, in one of my posts, I whip it out immediately :lol:

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed May 15, 2019 3:35 pm

My current teacher says suffering (dukkha) and Nirvana are the same. Evidently it's being kept secret from me. I can't connect how "running out of popcorn during Kung Fu movies" has anything to do with "a transcendence in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth."

:o
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

Spike
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Spike » Wed May 15, 2019 4:41 pm

Larry wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm

No, really, I can't stand innuendo. If I spot one, in one of my posts, I whip it out immediately :lol:
Too late to unsee that one :lol:

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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Wed May 15, 2019 5:14 pm

Larry wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm

I'm just a victim :114:
Have an IPA, you deserved it! :lol:
[SPOILER]
Ikkyu Pale Actualized :lol:
60271196_1236832629815204_2348435559937998848_n.jpg
60271196_1236832629815204_2348435559937998848_n.jpg (189.84 KiB) Viewed 494 times
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IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Wed May 15, 2019 5:16 pm

Larry wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm
I whip it out immediately :lol:

Let me restock the cellar with some Ikkyu Pale :lol:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Spike
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Spike » Wed May 15, 2019 7:39 pm

Larry wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm

No, really, I can't stand innuendo. If I spot one, in one of my posts, I whip it out immediately :lol:
Too late to unsee that :lol:

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Wed May 15, 2019 9:41 pm

You seem to have seen it twice now. I think that's enough :lol:

Spike
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Spike » Wed May 15, 2019 10:22 pm

Mercy mercy mercy

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Thu May 16, 2019 9:01 am

fuki wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:14 pm
Have an IPA, you deserved it! :lol:
Cheers! Lily gets everywhere :lol:

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