From dreams to actualization . . .

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
Caodemarte
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Caodemarte » Fri May 03, 2019 2:52 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:14 am
from: CHAPTER V .
"SITTING IN CH’AN"
https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings ... aJewel.pdf...
Thanks for the citation and reference! Appreciate it.

Seeker242
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Seeker242 » Fri May 03, 2019 10:58 am

clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
. . . when one awakens, everything may stop,
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

"May" being the key word here, which means Maybe. :)

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clyde
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Fri May 03, 2019 4:35 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 pm
Granted, going back to your point, it's good (best) to be Johnny-On-the-Spot while the Boss is still alive. And give natural thanks to the Old Man, or Venerable Lady, profoundly, profusely, in-person. But they already know our true Heart, else, there's no awakening. [emphasis added]
Here I will disagree in part and caution in part.

Awakening is not and cannot be dependent on a teacher. A teacher may be wonderfully helpful, but is not the cause of a student’s awakening.

The caution (and this is not meant to demean or diminish teachers) is that Zen teachers are not all the same and not all Zen teachers can or do “know our true heart”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

Caodemarte
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Caodemarte » Sat May 04, 2019 4:24 am

clyde wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:35 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 pm
Granted, going back to your point, it's good (best) to be Johnny-On-the-Spot while the Boss is still alive. And give natural thanks to the Old Man, or Venerable Lady, profoundly, profusely, in-person. But they already know our true Heart, else, there's no awakening. [emphasis added]
Here I will disagree in part and caution in part.

Awakening is not and cannot be dependent on a teacher. A teacher may be wonderfully helpful, but is not the cause of a student’s awakening.

The caution (and this is not meant to demean or diminish teachers) is that Zen teachers are not all the same and not all Zen teachers can or do “know our true heart”.
I have never heard of any legitimate Zen teacher claiming that awakening had anything to so with their knowing their students’ “true heart” or that it was dependent on a teacher.

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Sat May 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Some more good stuff from Meido on awakening, post-kensho practice & actualization from his Facebook Group....

"RE Rinzai practice, kensho is almost never "complete" (it is theoretically possible, but so rare as to not be worth talking about). There is always post-kensho practice to deepen, clarify, and embody. RE kensho itself, I would say there is no genuine Zen that does not acknowledge and rest upon the recognition of one's nature. In that regard, Rinzai and Soto Zen are not different at all, and their essential points and fruition are not different at all. As for the paths of practice, those naturally can differ: Rinzai Zen obviously has become well known for the koan/wato method, while Soto Zen has come to stress Dogen's teaching of shikantaza. Yet many Soto masters in the past also trained with Rinzai teachers, and vice versa...it is only in the modern era that we see such a strict sectarianism. And paths of practice can differ by lineage more than by sect: there are many flavors of both Soto and Rinzai Zen. But at the end of the day, we have to return to the basic or fundamental Zen path shared by all, which is to recognize one's so-called true nature, the nature of mind, one's original face, etc. and to practice in a manner taking that as the foundation or basis: in other words, in Zen we do not practice to get wisdom...we recognize our intrinsic wisdom, and that itself becomes the basis of practice. Shikantaza in its fruition is the unity of practice and verification precisely because it is this: it is not a "method", it is itself the manifestation of seeing-nature. The jewel mirror samadhi and alternate samadhis of hen and sho found in Rinzai practice are also precisely that. The only real practical question for any practitioner, of any lineage or school, is really "have you clearly grasped - in your experience, not intellectually or as a view of "how things are" - that to which the Buddha's and all the Patriarch's teachings point?". The immediate next question is, "to what degree are all the actions of body/speech/mind in accord with it? That is, how often do you fall away from it?" Finally, regarding "achieving something" or the danger of "the gaining mind" that seems to be something obsessed about these days, I honestly think it's one of the biggest red herrings or distractions we see in discussion of this kind. Of course we have goals, aspiration, intention, and want to achieve something: most profoundly, it is precisely summed up by the Four Vows. And, of course there is nothing one can gain that is originally apart from oneself, nothing one can get or possess...folks like to continuously remind RE that, but seriously, there is no legitimate Zen practitioner confused about it, and fixation on "nothing to gain", "no beings to save" is a kind of emptiness sickness. However, when we sit down to practice, of course we DO set aside all thought of goals, achievement, gaining, intention and so on...because to do otherwise is to not be fully engaged with whatever practice one's teacher has given. That last point is important: "great doubt" in the Rinzai path is not some view, or a kind of artificial inquiry one must generate. It is the bodily samadhi of the practice itself."

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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Spike » Sat May 04, 2019 4:33 pm

Thank you for your posts on this subject, Larry.

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Sat May 04, 2019 4:51 pm

No probs. Meido always seems wonderfully clear.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 06, 2019 1:00 am

clyde wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:35 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 pm
Granted, going back to your point, it's good (best) to be Johnny-On-the-Spot while the Boss is still alive. And give natural thanks to the Old Man, or Venerable Lady, profoundly, profusely, in-person. But they already know our true Heart, else, there's no awakening. [emphasis added]
Here I will disagree in part and caution in part.

Awakening is not and cannot be dependent on a teacher. A teacher may be wonderfully helpful, but is not the cause of a student’s awakening.

The caution (and this is not meant to demean or diminish teachers) is that Zen teachers are not all the same and not all Zen teachers can or do “know our true heart”.
Clyde, I think you're right in spirit, and I thank you and honor your going into this. Not many would do so, nor have done so, in-the-clear like this.

In detail, however, it depends on teacher and student. And on causes and conditions.

But when, in our deep(est) samadhi, we have a connection with a teacher, it's pretty clear that a teacher knows our true heart. And we our teacher's heart! How?, Why? Simple. "Ours" are ...the same. There is no other. But, this is true only when they truly are the same. And, the time at which they really truly are the same, is at awakening, and after.

I know that some folks here are faint-hearted about words about awakening, and its aftermath and upshot. There are indeed in Ch'an and Zen schools injunctions against "speaking too plainly" about certain extraordinary topics, but here we have compassionately drawn only a monochrome outline of a most central reality, and not even approached presenting a color pochade (which we will never do). Better that we complete a full painting with the influence of our own teacher and sangha, only.

Again, I don't think you're disagreeing, Clyde (sorry). ;)

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 06, 2019 1:09 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 4:24 am
I have never heard of any legitimate Zen teacher claiming that awakening had anything to so with their knowing their students’ “true heart” or that it was dependent on a teacher.
Maybe it's often tacit. And, to look for it in print may be too much to expect. On the other hand, there are exceptions that I can recall. But I don't need these printed examples.

I trust and believe you when you say that you "have never heard", etc. Sounds statistically about par.

But the teacher's mind and one's own are the same at awakening. The reason that this is so is that there is no other alternative (provided the teacher is up to snuff).

Well, see how it plays out.

--Joe

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 06, 2019 1:22 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:00 am
Awakening is not and cannot be dependent on a teacher. A teacher may be wonderfully helpful, but is not the cause of a student’s awakening.
Clyde, tnx, interesting opinions. Hmm, please maybe privately communicate with Meido Roshi about "pecking".

I don't say that this is "cause', but when a mama-bird helps to peck at the eggshell while the new bird pecks from the inside, why, it's important. Isn't always used or isn't always necessary, apparently, but it is a reality.

Why, I think Meido even writes about it quite in-the-clear, in his fine book. Renegade! :namaste:

But my teacher talked about it too, from within the Ch'an tradition. Maybe Meido heard about this from our shih-fu, when he studied with my teacher before he came to meet his Japanese master(s).

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Mon May 06, 2019 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 06, 2019 1:26 am

Nice thread title, this one.

I'm reminded of the first title of the book that largely became BE HERE NOW, in the 60s, published in New Mexico.

I have a copy of the handmade book, hand-stitched, somehow worth 1000s to some customers/collectors nowadays, they say:

FROM BINDU TO OJAS.

--Joe

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clyde
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by clyde » Mon May 06, 2019 2:24 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:22 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:00 am
Awakening is not and cannot be dependent on a teacher. A teacher may be wonderfully helpful, but is not the cause of a student’s awakening.
Clyde, tnx, interesting opinions. Hmm, please maybe privately communicate with Meido Roshi about "pecking".

I don't say that this is "cause', but when a mama-bird helps to peck at the eggshell while the new bird pecks from the inside, why, it's important. Isn't always used or isn't always necessary, apparently, but it is a reality.

Why, I think Meido even writes about it quite in-the-clear, in his fine book. Renegade! :namaste:

But my teacher talked about it too, from within the Ch'an tradition. Maybe Meido heard about this from our shih-fu, when he studied with my teacher before he came to meet his Japanese master(s).

--Joe
That awakening isn’t dependent on a teacher isn’t an opinion. If it wasn’t true, Siddhartha couldn’t of awakened.

I am familiar with the Zen concept/metaphor of “pecking” which confirms my statement that “a teacher may be wonderfully helpful”. But “pecking” isn’t the cause of awakening though a practitioner may feel immense gratitude to a teacher.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by fuki » Mon May 06, 2019 11:03 am

clyde wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:24 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:22 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:00 am
Awakening is not and cannot be dependent on a teacher. A teacher may be wonderfully helpful, but is not the cause of a student’s awakening.
Clyde, tnx, interesting opinions. Hmm, please maybe privately communicate with Meido Roshi about "pecking".

I don't say that this is "cause', but when a mama-bird helps to peck at the eggshell while the new bird pecks from the inside, why, it's important. Isn't always used or isn't always necessary, apparently, but it is a reality.

Why, I think Meido even writes about it quite in-the-clear, in his fine book. Renegade! :namaste:

But my teacher talked about it too, from within the Ch'an tradition. Maybe Meido heard about this from our shih-fu, when he studied with my teacher before he came to meet his Japanese master(s).

--Joe
That awakening isn’t dependent on a teacher isn’t an opinion. If it wasn’t true, Siddhartha couldn’t of awakened.

I am familiar with the Zen concept/metaphor of “pecking” which confirms my statement that “a teacher may be wonderfully helpful”. But “pecking” isn’t the cause of awakening though a practitioner may feel immense gratitude to a teacher.
Upon hearing these words Ma Tsu awakened (to the
teaching), bowed down and asked Huai Jang, 'How should
I use my mind to agree with the samadhi beyond form?'

The master replied, 'Your study of the Mind Dharma is
like sowing seeds and my expounding of its essentialsis like
the rain. Since your potentiality agrees with the Dharma,
you should perceive the truth.'

Ma Tsu asked, 'Truth is formless, how can it be perceived?'

The master replied, 'The mind Eye can perceive the truth.
This also applies to formless samadhi.'

Ma Tsu asked, 'Is the truth subject to creation and destruction?'

The 'master replied, 'If the truth is perceived as subject to
creation and destruction, formation and decay, it is not real.
Now listen to my gatha:

The Mind-ground holds the (flower) seeds
Which sprout when moistened by the rain.
The blossom of sarnadhi is formless,
How can it decay or come into being?

Upon hearing these words Ma Tsu awakened to the Mind
Dharma. He stayed to serve the master for ten years during
which he gradually acquired deeper experiences of the Mind
Dharma.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon May 06, 2019 6:22 pm

It is explicitly stated that Bodhisattvas broadcast innumerable seeds of liberation in all directions. And yet there are not innumerable liberated teachers in all directions. Draw your own conclusions from this or (drum roll...) ask your teacher!

But, I never mentioned, Thich Nhat Hanh's sanghas aren't staffed with the kind of Shifu that Sheng Yen and Joe are on about, rather, the sangha does most of these things for each other. He also says he is leaving no Dharma Heir, because he believes the the Sangha will replace that too. Dharmacharyas don't necessarily do dharma talks either. Different traditions, different teachers, same old Zen.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Caodemarte » Mon May 06, 2019 10:58 pm

To be clear any Zen teacher who claims he or she can cause enlightenment or give special extraordinary powers (as if to be ordinary was not amazing) is a teacher you should run from now.

It makes little sense in mainstream Mahayana Buddhism to say that any teacher can “cause” or give out enlightenment like a candy. Be helpful in the student’s awakening, surely, but that is a different question. If they could, then awakening would not be opening your eyes to what is, but simply receiving a nice little present. It would be an addition, not a clearing away of obstructions. I would add that the more one chases enlightenment as something outside oneself the farther away it will seem to get. Actually as Dahui (see The Letters of Chan Master Dahui Pujue by Jeffrey Broughton and Elise Yoko Watanabe) kept pointing out nothing can move the Dharma closer or farther to you. Like chasing your own tail the only benefit is that you may exhaust yourself and come to a stop. Now excuse me so I can go chase my own tail! It’s pretty fast, but this time I will catch it! Oh, well maybe someday I will follow my own advice.

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Larry
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Larry » Tue May 07, 2019 4:08 pm

I'll race you round the enso :D

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Kanji
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Kanji » Thu May 09, 2019 7:46 am

clyde wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:11 am
. . . when one awakens, everything may stop, and remain stopped for a long while, depending on the strength of the awakening. In the time when everything is stopped, there are no thoughts. For weeks or months. Perhaps longer. No dreams at night, either. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, in direct response and spontaneous response to actions and conditions and beings, just at the moment that actions and conditions arise, without a hairsbreadth of time-delay. Such is our marvelous, original mind (Original Mind; Buddha Mind).
Is this from personal experience or from the teachings? I don’t remember hearing or reading about dreams stopping upon awakening, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Speaking for myself I don't think they ever stop :105:

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu May 09, 2019 3:04 pm

Kanji is back...
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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fuki
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by fuki » Thu May 09, 2019 3:22 pm

Kanji wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:46 am
Speaking for myself I don't think they ever stop :105:
Well I am not the dream of the stream, so starting or stopping isn't even applicable, in fact no dream condition ever comes or goes, it only appears to. :hatsoff:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Kanji
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Re: From dreams to actualization . . .

Post by Kanji » Fri May 10, 2019 6:04 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Kanji is back...
:105: more or less upright!

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